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If a noob/s are riding with me, I always take the conservative assumption that they will try to keep up. Just the pschology of the thing (and also maturity level of the noob). To assume less could influence the noob to ride beyond his abilities. This is the safe approach.

I'm of the opinion that the most experienced/skilled rider should lead with the least experienced behind him. The pace would then be set for the slowest rider. All are then riding at a safe pace.

If it is desired to "race" through some twisties, the best approach is to leave separately (fastest rider first and slowest last) and meet up somewhere. This way each person is riding their own ride without undue influence to keep up or surpass someone else.

Lets face it, when riding in a pack, even the most experienced rider is tempted to try and keep up with a faster rider. I personally would rather go fast on a track (in a race), its safer, not to mention, when you play with the big boys you'll find out how good you really are. As in my case, I ceased being a hero in my own mind and gained a respect for the skills needed to really go fast. World of difference from street racing.
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recession in history

kwong2001 wrote: How can you enjoy your machine to it's "fullest" if you're on the street? What makes you any different than some stupid 16 year old in his beater honda civic?

For one, while riding a technical road we don't break the speed limit. I ride my bike to the "fullest" because I take turns fast enough to scrape pegs. How could I possibly ride it any harder beyond that point?

kwong2001 wrote: And yes, it is implied that you guys are riding wrecklessly if you're putting a few minutes between another rider.

My dad is on a smaller, slower bike with less handling ability than my bike. He knows I'm lookin' for a rush, and I know he wants to spend the day with his son. When we get to the technical part of our trip (often times the destination) it's just understood that we're gonna ride different rides. What we enjoy is the fact that we have pictures together and that we both experienced the same road on the same day. We don't have to keep sight of eachother every second in order to enjoy a "group" ride. I've been on very technical roads with large groups (200+ bikes) and had to ride closer than I would have liked, which really sucked the fun out of the trip for me. To each his own.

kwong2001 wrote: Only thing that really comes to mind is you just want to have a pissing match for who's faster on the street, which really proves nothing other than who wants to take more risk, NOT who's more skilled. Instead of actually HAVING a group ride, you guys can just have lunch and brag about your latest accomplishments on the streets.

Yeah...err...my dad and I get into "pissing" matches all the time...

I'm 28-years-old, and my dad is pushing sixty. I have 1600cc's, he has 800. I have sport-touring tires and sporty suspension, he has chrome spoked wheels and a cushy ride. It's not about competing with one another, it's an understanding that if he wants to tag along on one of my adventures (like the Dragon or 555) he'll probably be left behind on the twisties.

It works for us, so I'm not sure why you're trippin'.

Kal wrote: Hmm CB500 and a Marauder??? I can name those riders in one!

How is he going with the Marauder?

Last time I was up there, he'd riden it the whole half mile to daves place and back....

ZooTech wrote:

kwong2001 wrote: How can you enjoy your machine to it's "fullest" if you're on the street? What makes you any different than some stupid 16 year old in his beater honda civic?

For one, while riding a technical road we don't break the speed limit. I ride my bike to the "fullest" because I take turns fast enough to scrape pegs. How could I possibly ride it any harder beyond that point?

If you're on a cruiser, it's not like you have much limits to begin with. They scrape pegs without trying. Stop acting like your bike is a sportbike if it isn't

Oh and assuming you DO have any sportbike style bike, and you are scraping pegs, that IS considered wreckless driving in my book. Actually scraping pegs in general is wreckless driving, it's called keeping a little lean angle on reserve.

And just so you know, any decent rider on a sportbike, they don't scrape pegs, they're actually pretty far from scraping pegs if they're any good. It's called getting off of the seat. It also gives more groung clearance and changes the center of gravity.

ZooTech wrote:

kwong2001 wrote: And yes, it is implied that you guys are riding wrecklessly if you're putting a few minutes between another rider.

My dad is on a smaller, slower bike with less handling ability than my bike. He knows I'm lookin' for a rush, and I know he wants to spend the day with his son. When we get to the technical part of our trip (often times the destination) it's just understood that we're gonna ride different rides. What we enjoy is the fact that we have pictures together and that we both experienced the same road on the same day. We don't have to keep sight of eachother every second in order to enjoy a "group" ride. I've been on very technical roads with large groups (200+ bikes) and had to ride closer than I would have liked, which really sucked the fun out of the trip for me. To each his own.

So then why don't you just take a picture with your dad at home. OMG, you guys are experiencing the same road at the same time, that must be a big rush. Too bad you guys aren't experiencing it TOGETHER. Sounds to me like the only thing you really wanna do is show off your skills to your dad. So again, I ask you, what makes you any different than some 16 year old ricer in a Honda Civic?

ZooTech wrote:It works for us, so I'm not sure why you're trippin'.

Because it's people like YOU, and attitudes like YOURS, that bring up the cost of insurance, give a bad name for motorcyclist, and give politicians a reason to start taking away motorcyclist rights/priveleges.

And you know, if you REALLY wanna get a rush, have you ever heard of a thing called the race track?

ZooTech wrote:For one, while riding a technical road we don't break the speed limit. I ride my bike to the "fullest" because I take turns fast enough to scrape pegs. How could I possibly ride it any harder beyond that point?

How hard and late you brake into a corner and accelerate out of a corner and the line you take also comes into play when you're riding hard. If you're not breaking the speed limit then you're probably not riding as hard as you could, which is a good thing when street riding.

Riding with someone you know like your dad, with an understanding of what the other will do is completely different than riding with a noobie whose skills and psychology are unknown. With noobs, you just don't know how they'll react to different situations and yes, temptations to keep up with a pack.

When I started riding, I found myself riding harder with a pack than when I rode by myself. I pushed myself less when I was by myself and was riding within my skill level. In a pack, I pushed myself beyond my skill level, sometimes to the point of really scaring myself. Not good nor safe. Eventually, I found riding by myself more enjoyable than with a pack. I could dictate my own pace whenever and wherever I pleased.
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chocolate chunk rx

kwong2001 wrote:
Only thing that really comes to mind is you just want to have a pissing match for who's faster on the street, which really proves nothing other than who wants to take more risk, NOT who's more skilled. Instead of actually HAVING a group ride, you guys can just have lunch and brag about your latest accomplishments on the streets.

Obviously you have a different concept of what makes a group ride than myself and some others. You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about us in the process (reckless, pissing matches?). In a group with various levels of experience, everyone will ride the twisty sections at their own pace. There's really no reason to be all bunched up around the slowest rider. In my experience, its a very enjoyable way to go and as I said above, bringing up the rear can be just as much fun as leading the pack, as long as you can keep your ego in check.

flynrider wrote:

kwong2001 wrote:
Only thing that really comes to mind is you just want to have a pissing match for who's faster on the street, which really proves nothing other than who wants to take more risk, NOT who's more skilled. Instead of actually HAVING a group ride, you guys can just have lunch and brag about your latest accomplishments on the streets.

Obviously you have a different concept of what makes a group ride than myself and some others. You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about us in the process (reckless, pissing matches?). In a group with various levels of experience, everyone will ride the twisty sections at their own pace. There's really no reason to be all bunched up around the slowest rider. In my experience, its a very enjoyable way to go and as I said above, bringing up the rear can be just as much fun as leading the pack, as long as you can keep your ego in check.

Nope, you guys just haven't shown me the point of a "group ride" if everyone is just getting split up to begin with. I'm telling you the way I see it, it's a big ego trip and everyone wants to show off their skills, be a legend in their own mind.

If you want to show of your skills, take it to the track where the big boys play. We can see what kind of laptimes you'll do.

kwong2001 wrote: If you're on a cruiser, it's not like you have much limits to begin with. They scrape pegs without trying. Stop acting like your bike is a sportbike if it isn't.

Show me where I did so and I'll own up to it. You're the one calling me a "ricer". And here I thought I was just trying to enjoy myself.

kwong2001 wrote: Oh and assuming you DO have any sportbike style bike, and you are scraping pegs, that IS considered wreckless driving in my book.

Oh no! I've broken Kwong's rule #1!!! Quick, hide me hide me!!!

kwong2001 wrote: And just so you know, any decent rider on a sportbike, they don't scrape pegs, they're actually pretty far from scraping pegs if they're any good. It's called getting off of the seat. It also gives more groung clearance and changes the center of gravity.

Never said my bike was a sportbike. Remember back in middle school when the English teacher was trying to teach reading comprehension, and you were too busy daydreaming about being the star quarterback or doing naughty things to the blonde cheerleader that sat next to you instead of learning? Here's where paying attention to the teacher would have come in handy. A sportbike rider would probably dump their bike if they laid down low enough to scrape their pegs. As you already pointed out so eloquently, my bike scrapes pegs without trying. So, big man, maybe I don't feel like hanging off the side of an 800lb chrome cruiser with drag bars and mid-controls while wearing a pair of Wrangler jeans from Wal-mart. Again, I like to ride fast in the corners...faster than my dad does, at least, but I'm not a 16-year-old in a modded Civic, so let go of it already.

kwong2001 wrote: So then why don't you just take a picture with your dad at home. OMG, you guys are experiencing the same road at the same time, that must be a big rush. Too bad you guys aren't experiencing it TOGETHER. Sounds to me like the only thing you really wanna do is show off your skills to your dad.

I don't have to explain it to you. None of the riders I've ridden with have ever complained, so you're the one missing out. If you want to tie your bikes together with 10' ropes and go for a group ride on the Triple Nickel then have at it. Personally, I'd rather tackle it at my own pace and regroup at the rest stops. It's not like we can talk to one another anyway, so what's your beef???

kwong2001 wrote: Because it's people like YOU, and attitudes like YOURS, that bring up the cost of insurance, give a bad name for motorcyclist, and give politicians a reason to start taking away motorcyclist rights/priveleges.

Oh, it's people like me who have been driving for almost 13 years with NO traffic accidents and have been riding for almost four years without so much as dropping a bike that are driving up the cost of insurance???

Sounds perfectly logical to me (sic).

kwong2001 wrote: And you know, if you REALLY wanna get a rush, have you ever heard of a thing called the race track?

Have at it, Sport. You're clearly the superior rider and debater, so I wouldn't want to slow you up with my big dumb bike.

kwong2001 wrote: I'm telling you the way I see it, it's a big ego trip and everyone wants to show off their skills, be a legend in their own mind. If you want to show of your skills, take it to the track where the big boys play. We can see what kind of laptimes you'll do.

You mean go to the track like you do? Where you're a legend in your own mind and everyone else is just a bunch of peg-scraping ricer posers that give motorcycling a bad name?

Get bent.

Hi kwong,
Whilst I find that I don't agree on zootech on a lot of things (read engine size, safety gear, etc ), I do feel you've possibly read too much into zootechs post

I don't mean to have a go at you, but this is my read on things (in the spirit of healthy debate)

It is possible to take a corner safely, smoothly and quickly, without being reckless. Also as you say, cruisers don't have as much available lean angle as sportsbikes. so why do you feel that a sportsbiker with lots of space between his pegs and the road are any safer than a cruiser, at the same lean angle, scraping his pegs?

Also shifting your body weight is done to stop you sliding out, NOT to get you round a corner tighter (leaning the bike turns it tighter)
I have actively proved this by catching up a zx-6r rider on a 125cc honda varadero (15bhp) in the twisties - he hung off the bike, I was smoother by far through all the corners maintaining a lot of speed, and keeping some extra available lean angle in reserve just in case - Of course as soon as we got out of the tight corners, I didn't see him again

I also believe that shifting you weight on the saddle is one thing (by this I mean moving your arse up to 6 inches off center), but actively hanging off the bike has no place on the road.
The reason I say this, is because if you are hanging off the bike, it is more difficult to change direction quickly if something unexpected is in the road (that includes furry critters trying to commit suicide)

I welcome any views contrary to my own, as I believe everyone has a reason for their views. Please feel free to tell me I'm wrong, and include the reasoning behind your views, so I have something to think about and learn from

Ride safe
Andy

[quote="kwong2001]Nope, you guys just haven't shown me the point of a "group ride" if everyone is just getting split up to begin with. I'm telling you the way I see it, it's a big ego trip and everyone wants to show off their skills, be a legend in their own mind.

If you want to show of your skills, take it to the track where the big boys play. We can see what kind of laptimes you'll do.[/quote]

I give up Kwong. You seem to have a preconceived notion that I and my riding partners are a bunch of squids, tearing through mountain roads with our hair on fire and scaring children. Seeing as how you've never been on one of these rides, I'm amazed (and amused) at how you're leaping to these conclusions. Since you've already made up your mind about what constitutes a group ride in my neck of the woods, I'll not bother to try and convince you otherwise.

If it makes you feel any better about insurance rates, I have not so much as scratched a motorcycle in the last 20 yrs, nor earned a moving violation in the last 15. I no longer ride on the track, but can assure you that there's no way on earth that you'd catch me riding like that on the street. I'm well aware of the difference between an afternoon's fun on a mountain road and a trip around a twisty road course.

Safe riding.