Total Motorcycle Community Forums

totalmotorcycle wrote:In fact you could look at it in an even bigger light, the internal combustion engine started around the 1860's and really hasn't changed much since. It doesn't really matter what manufacturer it is. The only way we can really make a new engine is by breaking the mold and going to a new form such as electric.

Ya beat me to it. Most people don't stop to think about the various engine configurations and how little they've changed in basic form over the years, but for some reason when it comes to Harley people just parrot off the same tired old cliches regardless. So HD has had a 45 degree V-Twin for all these years. Big deal. BMW has been utilising the same 180 degree opposed twin pretty much since they started making bikes. And then there's Moto-Guzzi with their transverse V-Twin, Ducati with their... well, you get the idea.

All manufacturers, Harley included, have tweaked and improved their motors with new technology as it becomes available, to the point that nothing from a 2011 BMW motor will fit on a 1943 BMW, for example - but although it;s still the same basic engine configuration it has been updated and modernised through the decades to present day. As for Harley, I fail to see how hydraulic lifters, hydraulic cam chain tensioners, electronic ignition, sequential port EFI and modern metallurgy combines to make an "outdated" engine, but haters gotta hate.

Gummiente wrote:

Markg1 wrote:You must admit that Harleys have an outdated engine, suspension and who knows what else

What, exactly, is so outdated about the engine, suspension, etc? This is a common statement whenever the topic of Harleys come up, but most people are just parroting what they've heard others say without taking the time to investigate on their own. So, I'm all ears here...

I'm not saying dated is not good. I'm dated and I'm real good, just can't remember what I'm good at!

Don't get my wrong, I'm not a hater...I think they are cool looking. I have one! All of the motorcycle manufactures try to copy them. Yes, I know, the basic concepts of the engine has not changed but the technology to make them more effiecient and more reliable has. Lots of people like the air cooled engine but water cooled engines are more reliable. Whats the number one enemy of engines...heat! With the advances of water cooled engines, we can stablize that heat, which then in turn have a tighter tolerance level of the engine, which in turns increases reliability and power. How many horsepower is the sportster putting out? (60 maybe?) Don't get me wrong, harleys are cool, but besides the vrod not very many advances. I will give this to Harley that they are now starting to place ABS in some of their bikes. Now I'm not saying that Harleys are not reliable, it's just a fact that water cooled engines are more reliable. How many air cooled cars we have out there?

Hey this is a great forum and love the discussion but as long as your happy with your ride who cares what anybody thinks!

Sould we talk about belt vs shaft drive?

Markg1 wrote:
Don't get my wrong, I'm not a hater...I think they are cool looking. I have one! All of the motorcycle manufactures try to copy them. Yes, I know, the basic concepts of the engine has not changed but the technology to make them more effiecient and more reliable has. Lots of people like the air cooled engine but water cooled engines are more reliable. Whats the number one enemy of engines...heat! With the advances of water cooled engines, we can stablize that heat, which then in turn have a tighter tolerance level of the engine, which in turns increases reliability and power. How many horsepower is the sportster putting out? (60 maybe?) Don't get me wrong, harleys are cool, but besides the vrod not very many advances. I will give this to Harley that they are now starting to place ABS in some of their bikes. Now I'm not saying that Harleys are not reliable, it's just a fact that water cooled engines are more reliable. How many air cooled cars we have out there?

Hey this is a great forum and love the discussion but as long as your happy with your ride who cares what anybody thinks!

You make a logical argument and for machines that are stressed to the gills looking for ultimate h.p. water-cooling is the logical answer. For the application of a low-stress cruiser however, air-cooling works perfectly well. The evidence is in how many high mileage Harley's and air cooled BMWs out there that have had no heat related issues. I ride mostly water-cooled higher performance bikes but most of the high-mileage bikes that I have come across are the air-cooled Beemers or Harleys.

And from my own experience last year when my wife and I were stuck in 2 hours of construction: She was on her air cooled Ducati and I was on my Honda VFR. It seems that the VFR had a bad wire on the cooling fan and boiled over leaving me stuck in one lane of traffic on the Glacier pass with a mountain on 1 side and an 1200 ' drop on the other. The air cooled Duck had no issues.

High_Side wrote:

Markg1 wrote:
Don't get my wrong, I'm not a hater...I think they are cool looking. I have one! All of the motorcycle manufactures try to copy them. Yes, I know, the basic concepts of the engine has not changed but the technology to make them more effiecient and more reliable has. Lots of people like the air cooled engine but water cooled engines are more reliable. Whats the number one enemy of engines...heat! With the advances of water cooled engines, we can stablize that heat, which then in turn have a tighter tolerance level of the engine, which in turns increases reliability and power. How many horsepower is the sportster putting out? (60 maybe?) Don't get me wrong, harleys are cool, but besides the vrod not very many advances. I will give this to Harley that they are now starting to place ABS in some of their bikes. Now I'm not saying that Harleys are not reliable, it's just a fact that water cooled engines are more reliable. How many air cooled cars we have out there?

Hey this is a great forum and love the discussion but as long as your happy with your ride who cares what anybody thinks!

You make a logical argument and for machines that are stressed to the gills looking for ultimate h.p. water-cooling is the logical answer. For the application of a low-stress cruiser however, air-cooling works perfectly well. The evidence is in how many high mileage Harley's and air cooled BMWs out there that have had no heat related issues. I ride mostly water-cooled higher performance bikes but most of the high-mileage bikes that I have come across are the air-cooled Beemers or Harleys.

And from my own experience last year when my wife and I were stuck in 2 hours of construction: She was on her air cooled Ducati and I was on my Honda VFR. It seems that the VFR had a bad wire on the cooling fan and boiled over leaving me stuck in one lane of traffic on the Glacier pass with a mountain on 1 side and an 1200 ' drop on the other. The air cooled Duck had no issues.

You are absolutely correct in the fact that air cooled engines work well on cruisers. As a matter of fact air-cooled engines are very reliable. My lawn mower engine is air-cooled and I have had it for years. I don't disagree with the reliablity of air cooled engines. I was defending my statement that air cooled engines are outdated. All engines are inefficeint. Only 15% of the energy form the fuel you put in your tank gets used to move your car. The rest is lost in heat and various other variables. Engines with higher efficiency have more energy leave as mechanical motion and less as waste heat. It is also more difficult for air cooled engines to achieve low emissions. Who knows, Harley might have no other choice but to go water cooled! Oh no! Can you imagine that. A Vrod engine that produces 125bhp and over 85 ft pounds of torque (which is really fuel efficient) moving a road king! It's okay guys, technolgy is not all bad. As far as those over 100 degrees days of stop and go driving, I think my water cooled Harley will run as cool as it's name!

Mark can I ask a question re initial post: what do you mean by "crotch rocket"?

As far as HD's being cool I think most of the loud in your face sort of hd's are really uncool here! Probably fantastic on an open US highway with no helmet/wind in your hair etc, but not when they startle people in town. (I would't ride without helmet btw).

The only cool HD is the Vrod ~ mainly for the look but also the fact that it doesn't sound like a HD!

My fella rides a R111 & it is good fun when people don't hear it coming ~ THEN they are startled when they see it.

Funnily enough he really likes the Vrod & I fancy a Vmax so maybe one day we will have both in our bike shed too! But with 4 bikes in there already & no cash left it might be a while!

Markg1 wrote: I don't disagree with the reliablity of air cooled engines. I was defending my statement that air cooled engines are outdated. All engines are inefficient. Only 15% of the energy form the fuel you put in your tank gets used to move your car. The rest is lost in heat and various other variables. Engines with higher efficiency have more energy leave as mechanical motion and less as waste heat. It is also more difficult for air cooled engines to achieve low emissions. Who knows, Harley might have no other choice but to go water cooled! Oh no! Can you imagine that. A Vrod engine that produces 125bhp and over 85 ft pounds of torque (which is really fuel efficient) moving a road king! It's okay guys, technolgy is not all bad. As far as those over 100 degrees days of stop and go driving, I think my water cooled Harley will run as cool as it's name!

The interesting thing is that everything is not as cut a dried as you would think. I lifted the fuel mileage specs for both the V-Rod (one of my favorite bikes), and the Road King - a bike that weighs significantly more than the V-Rod with an air cooled engine from motorcyclistonline.com. While the V-Rod would likely face a heavier throttle hand in any testing, this goes to show just how efficient an air cooled Harley engine is when compared to a modern liquid cooled design.

2010 V-Rod
CAN Liters Per Kilometer (City)
6.9
CAN Liters Per Kilometer (Hwy)
5.6
US Miles Per Gallon (City)
34
US Miles Per Gallon (Hwy)

2011 Road King
CAN Liters Per Kilometer (City)
6.7
CAN Liters Per Kilometer (Hwy)
4.4
US Miles Per Gallon (City)
35
US Miles Per Gallon (Hwy)
54

Measuring fuel mileage is easy and from the info above you get to really understand that all is not as it theoretically should be. The air cooled "outdated" engine is actually more efficient at moving a significantly heavier motorcycle than the more modern liquid cooled V-Rod. My experience riding air cooled Harleys matches this. They are one of the more fuel efficient bikes that I have ever ridden, even though they are heavy....and in some eyes outdated.

High_Side wrote: Measuring fuel mileage is easy and from the info above you get to really understand that all is not as it theoretically should be. The air cooled "outdated" engine is actually more efficient at moving a significantly heavier motorcycle than the more modern liquid cooled V-Rod. My experience riding air cooled Harleys matches this. They are one of the more fuel efficient bikes that I have ever ridden, even though they are heavy....and in some eyes outdated.

This is true. Sportsters get amazing mileage for their displacement- 50 to 55 mpg is pretty common for 883's. (To compare, my 800cc Bonneville gets 45mpg in mixed riding.)

jstark47 wrote:

High_Side wrote: Measuring fuel mileage is easy and from the info above you get to really understand that all is not as it theoretically should be. The air cooled "outdated" engine is actually more efficient at moving a significantly heavier motorcycle than the more modern liquid cooled V-Rod. My experience riding air cooled Harleys matches this. They are one of the more fuel efficient bikes that I have ever ridden, even though they are heavy....and in some eyes outdated.

This is true. Sportsters get amazing mileage for their displacement- 50 to 55 mpg is pretty common for 883's. (To compare, my 800cc Bonneville gets 45mpg in mixed riding.)

Think yourselves lucky my VTR1000 does 30mpg on a good day......

Because my buddy John rides one.

My VT1100C2 gets 42-50 on the highway.

Martin

SlingVTR wrote:

Think yourselves lucky my VTR1000 does 30mpg on a good day......

That is one of the main reasons that I had to let go of mine after 11 years of ownership (my bad wrists were the other). Great bike, but I filled mine up 8 times in one day while touring through BC where there are inconvenient distances between towns. Other than that it's one of the best bikes that I have ever owned. There is about a 10% increase in fuel economy available with some knowledgeable adjusting of the throttle position sensor too.