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cb360 wrote:All right Vulcanman500. I think you're a good guy and I'm down with your intentions and I'm glad you've got this all figured out to your satisfaction. But please, do yourself a favor and stick to theology. I know you mean well, but you don't know the first thing about genetics. Of course dwarves can have a 'normal' child. There are different kinds of dwarfism and the genetic differences can be pretty complex. If anyone cares, dogs are canis familiaris and wolves are canis lupus and "gene", as in "genetics" is not spelled 'gean'. I'm not sure where we were going with the black and white people reproducing - that is pretty simple from a genetic standpoint. And god's plan about interspecies coupling resulting in a sterile mule? I don't know a lot about animal husbandry or livestock in general - but I'm pretty sure the answer is not in the bible and I'm certain a geneticist could tell you all the details.

But notice that these "Adaptations" of the human race do not change humanity's gean sequence.

OK. WTF does that mean? It doesn't mean anything at all! It's a complete and utter non-sequitur. I'm sure you know a lot about the bible... but you don't know anything about genetics. I mean really... less than nothing. It's negative knowledge.

You are cool with your spirituality... why do you feel the need to even deal with this stuff? I have no faith. You have plenty of it. Faith is the absolute antithesis of science. I don't understand the need to reconcile the two.

I think I'm done here. My frustration level is getting high and I don't think I'm going to learn anything. I shouldn't have come in here. Have a nice discussion.

Thank you. But please stay....You see, evolution is exacty science trying to explain away God by trying to understand the inconcievable nature of the created world. And nonbelief doesn't change truth. The archeological information I've quoted isn't from a website...I'll find the author when I get time.

We deal with this subject matter because we are secure in our faith and understand that faith is required in what we believe. After all, evolutionary theaory is the new kid here relative to creation. Even polytheistic pagan religions believed in creation and worshiped the "gods" they believed were responsible for the different parts of it (sun, moon, fire, water, etc).

God is evident in creation itself, and that is easier to believe, by faith, than the concept of big bang, and primordial ooze. If we evolved from apes, why are there still apes? If natural selection (survival of the fittest) is the only possible way, how did man survive without the power to weight ratio of any other carnivores? I know, superior intellect, but why? You see, science can't prove evolution any more than I can prove creation, but there is more scientific evidence supporting creation than refuting it. Just study it, don't get offended. Don't "stick to" one possible theory just because you don't believe in almighty God. Or, just choose your path, as we have. There are only two choices. The path you choose has a consequence in the end of this life.

We aren't trying to sell Jesus, or defend him. He stands just fine on his own. We just follow him and try to pass on the good news of his death on the cross as the way to salvation through simple belief. That's all, no argument intended, no attempts to squash your thinking, no ill-will, or attempt to win. Just information and Gospel when the opportunity presents itself. The motorcycle community is largely neglected in the evangelism efforts of most religions, due to the sterotypical lifestyles of some. Chris and I are just trying to make sure this community gets a chance at salvation, just like starving people in Haiti.

You know, faith is a funny thing.

I don't know how carbon-dating works (well, I do, but let's say I don't, yeah?). I believe it, however, because once upon I read in a book that it was true. I've never tested it for myself, and probably never will. Now, sure, people who don't know how it works believe it because it's 'a matter of science'. It's a matter of faith in the system of science.

That's all fine and well, too, when you're working with exact sciences*, like physics and chemistry. But then you get things like medicine, where people have faith in the system, and after a year of popping their meds, they get recalled(?) because they're killing people.

Do you own a motorcycle? Is it out in the garage/driveway? Well, if you can't physically see it right this very second, how do you know it's there? Maybe someone stoll it? Sure, that seems like a silly thought, but unless you can physically see your bike, or your tv, or whatever else you own, or anyone else you know, you cannot say, with accurate 100% certainty, 'yes, it's there' or 'yes, they're alive'. That sort of faith is a matter of fundamental human behaviour/thinking.

(* Well, that is until Jupiter explodes, or something equally crazy, and suddenly things change. Not that I expect that to happen or anything.)

We should all keep in mind that science, rather than the antithesis of faith, is really systematic discovery of how things already work. All the information scientists use is already in place for them to access as their abilities grow to reasearch and "develop" new technoligies. Nothing made by man is created...it all is manufactured by combining existing materials (elements) of nature. Much scientific work is an outgrowth of faith in the continued working of processes we don't understand, but want to learn about. We know it does such and such, but we want to know why, so we experiment.

This computer I'm typing on is made largely of petroleum, silicon, wood (papercapacitors, for example), various metals, inks made from plants and minerals...you get the idea.

When Man finally talks to God about creating our own humans, He'll undoubtedly tell us to get our own dust of the ground.

What i meant by the GENE thing is that humans are humans. Thats all. I recognize that my knowledge in these deeper areas of science are limited. But it doesn't take a genious to look back in time thousands of years to see that man is still man and beast is still beast. Leviticus talks about not trying to breed different species. The Bible hits everything. I encourage everyone to look into reading it before leaving out the possibilty that God created the earth. If its a possibilty, then we should look into it to see if it is credible. If somthing doesn't check out then it is your choice to believe something different. But still the main focus of the bible is redemption of fallen man. Thats why Jesus is important to me. I have fallen many times but he lifts me up continually.

vulcanman500 wrote:What you are discribining is SIN. We were not like this at first. we were decieved. God is NOT EVIL. He cast satan down becuase satan wanted the glory for himself. The Lord is in ALL WAYS good. He is not flawed in any way. We chose to go our own way. And your consience will testify that the law of God is written in your heart.(i can't rmember the verse right now.) Sev, these may be your ideas, but they are dangerous for you to enertain them. If anyone should decide to pray or confess sin, do it to God not to someone else. Jesus is the only LIVING priest who can fully remove all our blemishes. He will hear you and answer you when you call on him with the right motives. If someone doesn't have a bible you should get one and read it. And if you do, you will see that God is not evil, but he will punish the devil for all the Evil he has done against His name.

We believe this because God told us this.

You know what? I'm actually 12 feet tall. You going to take me at my word? Didn't think so!
So why are we taking his?

Telesque wrote:

Sevulturus wrote: It is fear of the consequences that prevents humans from taking inapropriate actions. "I'd get caught, I'd feel bad, God would know." Are all the reasons for not... stealing, killing, everything. But should those 3 self-decpetions be removed there is nothing to stop you from taking that million dollars, killing that rival, running away from your obligations.

Hey now- I know a good amount of aethiests who don't run around killing people.

WOW, you're right, because we'll get caught by the police, or we'll feel bad. Consequences. Just because I don't believe my soul will be damned doesn't mean I won't feel bad about hurting someone. It doesn't mean I'd think I could get away with having done it.

I don't kill people because I know I'd feel bad about it. Or I might be caught by the police and end up in jail. If I knew I wouldn't feel bad, and wouldn't get caught and you pissed me off... you honestly might end up a corpse. But my parents raised me well. So that isn't a concern.

houk wrote:

There is no God. Or if there is, and that's a big IF to me

Personally I disagree with this statement, but one thing for sure, everyone of us here is going to find out. No scientist has figured out a way to avoid death. I just cant believe that everything got here by accident, or from some germ swimming in a puddle way back when. I cant see the wind, but I know its there

Actually it is theoretically possible to avoid the natural aging process. When the DNA of a new born cell is created there is a bunch of "junk data" at the ends. When it is copied (cell reproduction) A protien attaches to the very end of the DNA strand. The "junk data" so the last three amino acids in the sequence are not reproduced. So you'd start with a strand that has say 10,000,000 different amino acids used as genetic information + 10,000 that are just junk (these are TOTALLY random numbers). Every time the cell divides, the new cell has three less junk amino acids. When all of these are used up, the cell can still reproduce, but the protien now binds to the genetic information which stops being copied. This triggers cell death, as it is a corrupted protien, and that cell is never reproduced. Aging is literally cells dieing faster then they are reproduced.

In lab rats, or lab mice in the early feotal stages scientists have inserted extra "junk data" for the protien to bind to into the DNA strands, extending thier lives. It is possible. However not yet availible for human... testing

vulcanman500 wrote:What i meant by the GENE thing is that humans are humans. Thats all. I recognize that my knowledge in these deeper areas of science are limited. But it doesn't take a genious to look back in time thousands of years to see that man is still man and beast is still beast. Leviticus talks about not trying to breed different species. The Bible hits everything. I encourage everyone to look into reading it before leaving out the possibilty that God created the earth. If its a possibilty, then we should look into it to see if it is credible. If somthing doesn't check out then it is your choice to believe something different. But still the main focus of the bible is redemption of fallen man. Thats why Jesus is important to me. I have fallen many times but he lifts me up continually.

Your DNA is 99% identical to that of a chimpanzee. If you want to talk about the differences between man and beast you might want to chew on that for... a couple minutes.

Sevulturus wrote:

Telesque wrote:

Sevulturus wrote: It is fear of the consequences that prevents humans from taking inapropriate actions. "I'd get caught, I'd feel bad, God would know." Are all the reasons for not... stealing, killing, everything. But should those 3 self-decpetions be removed there is nothing to stop you from taking that million dollars, killing that rival, running away from your obligations.

Hey now- I know a good amount of aethiests who don't run around killing people.

WOW, you're right, because we'll get caught by the police, or we'll feel bad. Consequences. Just because I don't believe my soul will be damned doesn't mean I won't feel bad about hurting someone. It doesn't mean I'd think I could get away with having done it.

I don't kill people because I know I'd feel bad about it. Or I might be caught by the police and end up in jail. If I knew I wouldn't feel bad, and wouldn't get caught and you pissed me off... you honestly might end up a corpse. But my parents raised me well. So that isn't a concern.

I think I took your original statement the wrong way. Please disregard. Kthnxbai

That's what I call a 1 percenter! Chewed up, spit out, and washed away, all in less than a couple of minutes. One percent is enough, isn't it? Nothing you just quoted from your college texbooks refutes creation or God at all, but it just goes to show a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. Like I said before, these are discoveries of what is already in place and working. They are not attributable to man in any way.

As for why we should believe God and not you...does anybody really need to answer that one? (a certain percentage of this is in jest, you figure out how much).