Should you take small children as passengers - Split thread

[Lion_Lady]

Copy of a post I made in the other 1/2 of this thread, hoping for all who ride with kids to see it....

...ever have a kid nod off? happens more than you'd imagine! This belt even aloows a kid to nod off, with no fear of falling. For these kids, simply place it higher up toward their armpits and let 'em nod off!

I'm sorry. But if a child is unable to stay awake on a ride, then they're too young to be on the back. OR you're taking too long of a ride. A belt that ties ANY passenger to the rider just strikes me as a horrible risk. Especially if that passenger is a child.

If the worst should happen, what is the chance that an otherwise uninjured child will be crushed by their parent on impact with the ground (or anything)? Or have their neck or back injured by the greater weight/force of a parent being flung off the motorcycle with them attached by that narrow belt around their waist?

Just makes me shudder to think about. Sorry, but if a child is too young to HOLD ON for themselves, then they are too young to be pillions.

P

[CycleOpsUSA]

Hi there Lion Lady,

I appreciate your comments, but there are a few realities we must deal with.
1) I don't condone riding with kids who are narcoleptic... sometimes kids enjoy motion like on a bike, or in a car, and they get relaxed and fall asleep, even when unexpected by the rider. I am not saying to strap a sleeping kid onto the back of a motorcycle.
2) The likelyhood of a child letting go and falling off, or a rider making a sudden safety maneuver and them losing their grip (obviously, kids hand strength is not enough, and especially if a sudden move occurs) is more likely than you causing them more injury in a fall. The counter to this is the kid could be protected if you hit the ground below them first. A crash is a crash. Whether in a car, on a motorcycle, on a bicycle, or on any other method of transportation, a crash is a crash and injuries occur. I do not claim this to protect kids from injury in a crash situation, but it does eliminate all other potential safety concerns (a kid being bounced off, slides off, loses grip, etc) short of a crash or fall. I personally prefer to eliminate the potential pitfalls best I can, and God forbid something happens and we're tossed off together, rest assured I'll be the one doing my best to land under them and break their fall if at all humanly possible.

You obviously don't condone kids on bikes by your statements, and that is fine for you to feel that way. However, there are many here who enjoy sharing a ride and the overall experience with our kids, and do so in a responsible manner, eliminating any possible variables short of an enexpected crash or fall.

Bottom line is this... every child (one legal to ride I might add) is different, and only the parent is the one who makes the ultimate decision as if they're capable or not to ride. With or without this belt.

As for your final comment of "if a child is too young to HOLD ON for themselves, then they are too young to be pillions", then when do you decide they can hold on long enough and well enough? By asking them? Or is it OK when they no longer fall of by inadvertently letting go or losing grip? This is my very valid point, you don't leave chance to a child, you take preventive measures. At least this takes all the variables out of 'riding safety' and only leaves the worst case scenario of a crash causing injury, of which regardless of anything you can do, can happen in or on any vehicle.

[Brackstone]

I did the opposite. I out her on the bike when it was a tad colder then she would have otherwise liked and rode some bumpy roads.

Problem solved. She has no interest in riding on the back anymore and I am more then glad.

I don't have kids and I'm not planning on ever having them so I can't really judge but that just sounds cruel.

The method you used seems akin to those invisible fences for dogs. I'd like to think that parents teach their children instead of training them.

Why didn't you sit down and tell them why they can't ride on the back of the bike etc. etc.?

[ofblong]

As for your final comment of "if a child is too young to HOLD ON for themselves, then they are too young to be pillions", then when do you decide they can hold on long enough and well enough? By asking them? Or is it OK when they no longer fall of by inadvertently letting go or losing grip? This is my very valid point, you don't leave chance to a child, you take preventive measures. At least this takes all the variables out of 'riding safety' and only leaves the worst case scenario of a crash causing injury, of which regardless of anything you can do, can happen in or on any vehicle.

I decided by taking my children to a parking lot. If they wont/cant hold on in a parking lot doing 5mph then they wont be able to hold on doing 45mph on the open road. I refuse to use a belt as well BECAUSE the possiblity still exists that you can crush them no matter how hard you try to land where you wont crush them. My son let go of me with 1 hand 1 time while I was doing 45mph. I immediatly stopped and explained to him if he does it again he will NOT ride for a long time. I also explained the consequences to him. He hasnt done it since. But I agree if you child nods off your taking too long of a ride. My children dont go for more than a 15 minute ride with me and I never get over 45mph. Thats how you take out all the variables not by babying them with a belt.

[Lion_Lady]

Hi there Lion Lady,

I appreciate your comments, but there are a few realities we must deal with.
1) I don't condone riding with kids who are narcoleptic... sometimes kids enjoy motion like on a bike, or in a car, and they get relaxed and fall asleep, even when unexpected by the rider. I am not saying to strap a sleeping kid onto the back of a motorcycle.

If any child is young enough that you are not certain that they will be able to stay awake and alert while on the back, then you need to wait until the child is older, or take very short rides.

2) The likelyhood of a child letting go and falling off, or a rider making a sudden safety maneuver and them losing their grip (obviously, kids hand strength is not enough, and especially if a sudden move occurs) is more likely than you causing them more injury in a fall. The counter to this is the kid could be protected if you hit the ground below them first.

See above. Wait until the child is older. It is also useful to set up a couple of hand tap signals, including "HOLD ON!"

A crash is a crash. Whether in a car, on a motorcycle, on a bicycle, or on any other method of transportation, a crash is a crash and injuries occur. I do not claim this to protect kids from injury in a crash situation, but it does eliminate all other potential safety concerns a kid being bounced off, slides off, loses grip, etc) short of a crash or fall. I personally prefer to eliminate the potential pitfalls best I can, and God forbid something happens and we're tossed off together, rest assured I'll be the one doing my best to land under them and break their fall if at all humanly possible.

Do have ANY proof that this belt ELIMINATES ALL potential safety concerns? And I'm very curious as to how you'd be able to defeat the laws of physics and put your flying/tumbling body between pavement and your child in a crash.

You obviously don't condone kids on bikes by your statements, and that is fine for you to feel that way. However, there are many here who enjoy sharing a ride and the overall experience with our kids, and do so in a responsible manner, eliminating any possible variables short of an enexpected crash or fall.

Sorry, but wrong again. I've taken each of my children on the back of my motorcycle. In fact, my daughter travelled as pillion with me to Georgia two summers ago - a trip of over 1200 miles. No belt needed. My youngest got his first ride with me at the ripe old age of 12 years old.

As for your final comment of "if a child is too young to HOLD ON for themselves, then they are too young to be pillions", then when do you decide they can hold on long enough and well enough? By asking them? Or is it OK when they no longer fall of by inadvertently letting go or losing grip? This is my very valid point, you don't leave chance to a child, you take preventive measures. At least this takes all the variables out of 'riding safety' and only leaves the worst case scenario of a crash causing injury, of which regardless of anything you can do, can happen in or on any vehicle.

There is no AGE at which a child is strong enough to hold on, but a parent should have a good grasp of a child's capabilities as they grow and mature. A wise parent "knows."

Again, I'm very curious as to what documentation you have that this riding belt is SAFE or smart. Wondering what sort of disclaimer there is in the packaging.

P

[CycleOpsUSA]

As for your final comment of "if a child is too young to HOLD ON for themselves, then they are too young to be pillions", then when do you decide they can hold on long enough and well enough? By asking them? Or is it OK when they no longer fall of by inadvertently letting go or losing grip? This is my very valid point, you don't leave chance to a child, you take preventive measures. At least this takes all the variables out of 'riding safety' and only leaves the worst case scenario of a crash causing injury, of which regardless of anything you can do, can happen in or on any vehicle.

I decided by taking my children to a parking lot. If they wont/cant hold on in a parking lot doing 5mph then they wont be able to hold on doing 45mph on the open road. I refuse to use a belt as well BECAUSE the possiblity still exists that you can crush them no matter how hard you try to land where you wont crush them. My son let go of me with 1 hand 1 time while I was doing 45mph. I immediatly stopped and explained to him if he does it again he will NOT ride for a long time. I also explained the consequences to him. He hasnt done it since. But I agree if you child nods off your taking too long of a ride. My children dont go for more than a 15 minute ride with me and I never get over 45mph. Thats how you take out all the variables not by babying them with a belt.

You just proved my point, and worse yet you don't even realize it. Your kid took a hand off while riding and he could have easily fallen off just as quickly. To worry about the falling together before you worry about them just falling off period, you're totally missing the entire point or just can't admit it's a stupid risk to take, leaving it up to the kid and giving them a test to see if they can hold on and pay attention at 5 miles per hour in a parking lot instead of a real situation. You want to give 'em a rea life test? Want to take chances like that? Like how about riding at your 45mph, or even at only 30, then swerve hard and see if they hold on. That's a real life test. Willing to try that? Didn't think so, neither am I. That's why I don't worry and I can ride as necessary regardless of what comes up. Hoiw about if you got a blowout and the bike got hard to handle? Still going to take a hand off the bars to grab your kid or would you prefer to have total control of your bike, and your kid?
Worry about their safety while riding first, and of falling attached to you second (you could always pinch the buckle and release it if you're so worried... or just be a man and take he dive under your kid and break their fall if at all possible). At least with the first part covered it leaves you alert and focused to hopefully avoid the latter. Does no one see the logic here or are eyes wide shut here?

Bottom line? Don't worry about worst case scenarios unless you're willing to eliminate the ones you can firsat, plain and simple. Isn't it? If you can't be a responsible parent and take EVERY PRECAUTION, then you have no right in the fuirst place placing a kid in danger simply because you feel reality is too hard a concept to get.

[Lion_Lady]

Truth be told, if a child "lets go" they are not going to immediately fly off the motorcycle. The problem is when something unexpected happens.

I did a bit of googling and found THIS:
http://www.childridingbelt.com/enginstrcen.htm

Seems a lot more secure than the 10 feet of nylon webbing and plastic buckes that is the Little Riders Belt. Which at $75 seems pricey for the product.

BOTH sites specifcially state that the belt is NOT a "Safety Device." The Child Riding Belt site goes so far as to state that they do not condone riding with a child on the back, but if you're bound and determined to do it, then use the belt.

The Child Riding Belt is expensive ($170) but there is a lot more to it, and if I were determined to strap a chld on the back of my bike, I think I might prefer it because it provides neck support and hand holds.

P

[niterider]

I used to take two of my nethews for a rides, both at the same time, one in front and the other one at the rear. Was it safe? maybe not. But it sure was fun!!!!

[ofblong]

As for your final comment of "if a child is too young to HOLD ON for themselves, then they are too young to be pillions", then when do you decide they can hold on long enough and well enough? By asking them? Or is it OK when they no longer fall of by inadvertently letting go or losing grip? This is my very valid point, you don't leave chance to a child, you take preventive measures. At least this takes all the variables out of 'riding safety' and only leaves the worst case scenario of a crash causing injury, of which regardless of anything you can do, can happen in or on any vehicle.

I decided by taking my children to a parking lot. If they wont/cant hold on in a parking lot doing 5mph then they wont be able to hold on doing 45mph on the open road. I refuse to use a belt as well BECAUSE the possiblity still exists that you can crush them no matter how hard you try to land where you wont crush them. My son let go of me with 1 hand 1 time while I was doing 45mph. I immediatly stopped and explained to him if he does it again he will NOT ride for a long time. I also explained the consequences to him. He hasnt done it since. But I agree if you child nods off your taking too long of a ride. My children dont go for more than a 15 minute ride with me and I never get over 45mph. Thats how you take out all the variables not by babying them with a belt.

You just proved my point, and worse yet you don't even realize it. Your kid took a hand off while riding and he could have easily fallen off just as quickly. To worry about the falling together before you worry about them just falling off period, you're totally missing the entire point or just can't admit it's a stupid risk to take, leaving it up to the kid and giving them a test to see if they can hold on and pay attention at 5 miles per hour in a parking lot instead of a real situation. You want to give 'em a rea life test? Want to take chances like that? Like how about riding at your 45mph, or even at only 30, then swerve hard and see if they hold on. That's a real life test. Willing to try that? Didn't think so, neither am I. That's why I don't worry and I can ride as necessary regardless of what comes up. Hoiw about if you got a blowout and the bike got hard to handle? Still going to take a hand off the bars to grab your kid or would you prefer to have total control of your bike, and your kid?
Worry about their safety while riding first, and of falling attached to you second (you could always pinch the buckle and release it if you're so worried... or just be a man and take he dive under your kid and break their fall if at all possible). At least with the first part covered it leaves you alert and focused to hopefully avoid the latter. Does no one see the logic here or are eyes wide shut here?

Bottom line? Don't worry about worst case scenarios unless you're willing to eliminate the ones you can firsat, plain and simple. Isn't it? If you can't be a responsible parent and take EVERY PRECAUTION, then you have no right in the fuirst place placing a kid in danger simply because you feel reality is too hard a concept to get.

I most certainly did NOT prove your point nor did I come close to doing so. I posted 45mph because I go SLOWER than the speed limit and take MY TIME when I have children on back THUS leaving me a TON of room to safely avoid any dangerous situation. My son not only squeezes the seat hard with is legs he squeezes my jacket rings tightly as well. I actually explained the issues with him BEFORE giving him his first ride but I didnt explain the consequences till after he did it (which yes is my fault and I should have explained the consequences beforehand not after). To me it seems you ASSUME that a parent who lets their child ride is reckless and WILL get into a dangerous situation that will require high speed maneuver (even 30mph) when in reality most (there is always an exception) people I know that give their children rides on the back TAKE MORE TIME/PATIENCE AND ARE MORE ALERT than when they ride alone or with an adult. Also I asked him WHY he let go and it was to adjust his goggles off his face. So what did I do? I fixed it so he no longer has any issues with the goggles on his face. Also as Lion Lady pointed out hand signals/other types of body signals work way better than some belt that is detrimental to the learning of how to properly ride a motorcycle.

IMO something that allows laziness (your belt or any belt) creates laziness and in the end becomes more of a safety issue than not using what allows laziness. Also it boggles my mind that you think you will ALWAYS be able to dive under your child and NEVER roll from whatever momentum caused you to "dismount" your bike. YOu seem to think you have infinite amounts of time to react fast enough to be able to "disconnect the belt" or "dive under your child" when something horrible happens. You are very misguided in your thinking if so and it seems to be that way. Note I am not saying my way to ride with my children is perfect. No way is and no way ever will be but to me I feel my child has a better chance of surviving without being attatched to me than if he was.

[badinfluence63]

This is a controversial subject one that has many valid points. Should one just up and toss a kid on a bike? No! Its like the helmet law and riding motorcycles or anything else in life. Some people should never ride a motorcycle. Some people should never drive a car. Some people should be killed right now. Some people should not have a child on a motorcycle. I did it knowing it was a major responsibility and approached it as such. Took as many cautious approaches as I could think of to minimize the risk and made it more of a calculated risk, to a point. I was a good and experienced rider(still no guarantees). As described in another part of this thread I did it all the time and never had one single issue. I stayed on the back back roads (minimum to no cars), kept it around 15-25MPH and never went to far away. Time wise because of the back roads and trying to go way out of my way to avoid congested areas it took 40 minutes but was maybe 10-12 miles away. When you live in the country you have those options. When you live in the city no so much.

When you're on a motorcycle nothing is 100%, ever. So when you put a child on that bike, do so knowing they are gonna be factored into the deal for the good or bad.

Anyone who rides a bike could be categorized as a risk taker, someone who likes to play the odds. The odds while not 100% manipulatable can be altered by a number of different things, in my opinion. Things like common sense, good judgement and the ability to know your strenghths and weakneses. There are people who ride motorcycles that are a risk to themselves never mind putting a child on with them.

In hind site I was gambling with my childrens safety by some peoples standards. I believe in the many years of riding and incorporating my children as safely as possible, was a win win situation. Minimizing the 4 wheeled traffic helped alot, driving slow helped, not going far helps. It still wasn't 100%. Would I do it now. No, because my faculties are not that vibrant as they once were hence I got the side car. That compensates or rather with the grandson in the sidecar as opposed to setting on my lap as my children did its safer but still a degree of risk yet again. A risk that I feel up to by again staying off the main roads, not driving far and driving slower when he is with us.

At some point that won't help either and I will stop riding motorcycles altogether. Thats still a few years down the road, I hope.