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Todays form of capitalism only creates wealth for the big players. It creates debt and servitude for the masses. This will become evident in the next big debt collapse. Watch for corporate media to blame some external circumstance and try to fix it with - more debt! Which you, your children, and your grandchildren will be responsible for - with interest! On money and at cost explained above

kali wrote:

Nibblet99 wrote:

kali wrote:

Septimus wrote:Sixty years later, how many of us notice the anniversary of Pearl Harbor?

Don't get me wrong -- I live in NYC and people who were downtown at the time are still shaken up when they talk about it, but for everybody else who wasn't directly affected in some way, it's already the distant past.

Pearl Harbor. What a joke. After we blockaded Japan for 6 months! Starving them of food and fuel in a purposeful and successful attempt to get them to fire the first shot. Didn't count on it being so good. All because they tried to extend their colonial rule in China beyond the boundaries the West set for them in a colony sharing arraignment with the US, Britain, Russia, France. All less than a century (time moved much more slowly then) after the US forced open Japan at gunpoint with our gunboat diplomacy. And not long after Britain's opium war and taking of Hong Kong. Please stop sobbing because unthinking sad sacks actually swallow their patriotism whole instead of using their god given minds to think for themselves. Do us a favor and keep this "crumb" to yourself before you infect someone else.

My understanding is that the Japanese slaughtered more Chinese in WWII than Hitler did Jews. Please do correct me if I'm wrong here.

In war, there are few, if any, innocent nations.

Maybe what our nations did was right, maybe wrong, but whats done is done now. As for the ongoing Iraq conflict, I no longer have an opinion as to whether it was right or wrong. And until someone hands me all the intelligence information leading up to it, how can I be expected to make a reasonable decision as to whether the actions of our leaders were justifiable or not?

You are correct. And Stalin more than Hitler also.

I see you are from the UK. Then you know of the Great Game. Most yahoo Americans do not. You also know it was the Brits that drew up the borders of the Middle East with France. And I assume you know that the dreaded Taliban are a faction of the Pashtun tribe that is a distinct group of people that were purposefully divided by British geographers and oil men by drawing the Indian (now Pakistan) border down the middle of them. That this has been a part of Western colonial practice for 300 years. That it was purposefully done to promote weakening chaos and controllable failing state structures throughout the Middle East and Africa. That this is the cause of their resentment and fighting. That it was designed to be this way by the West to facilitate control and resource extraction and profit.

This is what we die for. This information is freely available. That one does not know or understand these things is the definition of stupidity.

To die for this is a waste. To promote it directly by advocating it (war) or indirectly by mouthing ritual platitudes (support the troops, honor the heroes) is moronic.

I disagree, terrorism is now a problem that is incredibly hard to deal with, where the acts of a motivated few can have disastrous effects. I would not find it surprising if some terrorist cells were sponsored by states, as an indirect method of disrupting a country without having a trail of accountability leading back.

There's 2 main ways of dealing with terrorism
1. Ignoring it and hoping it goes away - whats the point in causing acts of terrorism if no-one gets scared or detered by it

2. A tremendous display of power, demonstrating that any action against your country will have immense consequences to their own. This is why we entered Afghanistan in my opinion

As for Iraq, maybe it was a continuation of the demonstration, maybe they were linked as financially sponsoring terrorist groups, or maybe it was all to do with oil. Frankly until one of us becomes Prime Minister/President do you ever think you'll have all the information to know exactly what happened?

If this really is a continuation of actions against terrorism (which is possible whether you think it likely or not) Then I'm damned sure its needed to protect American (amongst others) lives

There was very little terrorist action in Iraq until..... Guess if you can.... yes, until we, the US showed up. Before we showed up, Iraq had its own internal problems, and a leadership that would not be second banana to any other leadership structure. Even George Bush himself admitted this, but a select group of right-winged wackos have decided to ignore that and focus on the end, as it justifies the means - wrong. So we remove the government, and the whole Arab world comes to Iraq and we provide a great training ground for future terrorist. This is just what terrorism need to grow was our stupid act. Guess what started all this? It was the US going to Iraq for the first war there and establishing control in Saudi Arabia. So we helped fuel the first big drive to eliminate the infidels (leading to 9-11), and we continue to fuel further hatred towards the west. Hey, it might have been for a good cause to get rid of Sadam, but it has only made the world a worse place. Sadam was the least of our worries.

I think it's very naive of someone to believe and support "a war on 'terror". It's surprising how blinded some are to the reasons why we entered Iraq and how fear of another 9 11 will persuade them.

I can not provide any numbers or statistics, but this war in Iraq has caused a lot of hate for the US from LARGE numbers of people. I assure anyone that the people throughout the world are beginning to hate America more and more every day. America is only fueling the fire to more terrorism while they try and stop the few terrorists that we are already aware of. The media claims we are not fighting a country or governmental rule, but instead "terrorists"?? The more you think about their reasons for entering Iraq, the more you realize how badly we are getting screwed and lied to us. Sadly enough, more terrorists are born everyday. If the American hegemon continues to behave like they have been, twenty years from now we will have a much larger problem.

I do not blame our soliders in Iraq and I feel nothing but sorry for them. Sometimes I question the extent to which they are being brainwashed and misled by their leaders. I have nothing but total respect and remorse for them because they are losing their lives due to our greedy administration and corporate owners. I hope they all will come home someday. I hope the election in 2008 will not lead to another scandal and lies similar to what happened in Florida of 2000.

Kali, I agree with everything you have said. We need more people of your knowledge and awareness of what's really happening today. People who aren't afraid to reveal the truth, regardless of consequences.

War on Terror, might as well have a war on comedy.

matthew5656 wrote:I think it's very naive of someone to believe and support "a war on 'terror". It's surprising how blinded some are to the reasons why we entered Iraq and how fear of another 9 11 will persuade them.

I can not provide any numbers or statistics, but this war in Iraq has caused a lot of hate for the US from LARGE numbers of people. I assure anyone that the people throughout the world are beginning to hate America more and more every day. America is only fueling the fire to more terrorism while they try and stop the few terrorists that we are already aware of. The media claims we are not fighting a country or governmental rule, but instead "terrorists"?? The more you think about their reasons for entering Iraq, the more you realize how badly we are getting screwed and lied to us. Sadly enough, more terrorists are born everyday. If the American hegemon continues to behave like they have been, twenty years from now we will have a much larger problem.

I do not blame our soliders in Iraq and I feel nothing but sorry for them. Sometimes I question the extent to which they are being brainwashed and misled by their leaders. I have nothing but total respect and remorse for them because they are losing their lives due to our greedy administration and corporate owners. I hope they all will come home someday. I hope the election in 2008 will not lead to another scandal and lies similar to what happened in Florida of 2000.

Kali, I agree with everything you have said. We need more people of your knowledge and awareness of what's really happening today. People who aren't afraid to reveal the truth, regardless of consequences.

sigh no one on this thread gets it. We arent supporting the reason for the war but rather supporting those that are going to war. I am glad that those soldiers went so I dont have to, be it through a draft or some other means forcing me to.

matthew5656 wrote:
I do not blame our soliders in Iraq and I feel nothing but sorry for them. Sometimes I question the extent to which they are being brainwashed and misled by their leaders. I have nothing but total respect and remorse for them because they are losing their lives due to our greedy administration and corporate owners. I hope they all will come home someday.

Hold on to your bullshit and pity. US Forces don't need it. They aren't brain washed and on the contrary pretty damn educated. Don't confused faithful service and pride with manipulated.

And the soldiers/sailors/airman/marines in Iraq are the same ones that are stationed at any forward deployed or stateside base.

Shorts wrote:Hold on to your bullshit and pity. US Forces don't need it. They aren't brain washed and on the contrary pretty damn educated. Don't confused faithful service and pride with manipulated.

And the soldiers/sailors/airman/marines in Iraq are the same ones that are stationed at any forward deployed or stateside base.

Brain washed? No. Following orders without question? Yes. That is their jobs. They swear to carry out the orders of the Commander and Chief without question. Can they have their own opinion? Yes. Can they protest an order from above? No. That is not what makes an effective military. They need to follow orders, or follow procedure to question any order. If they disagree with the war in Iraq, there is no real way to challenge the idea. And so, no one would.

So that means one meathead can get a terrified nation, and frightened representatives to go to war for the wrong reason, and cause a whole lot of guys who are great Americans to do the wrong thing, and not really be able to question this wrong thing. I'm sorry, but that is the reality. God save them from the wrong idea they are forced to support. I thank God they are there to protect us, but I wish they were protecting us and not involved in some folly in a stupid place.

Scan,

You're wrong. I most certainly can question an order from above. It is called the Constitutional Paradigm, and it is the focus of any study of military ethics. I am not bound to follow an order that is contrary to the Constitution or the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

This is not intended to be a trite answer, since the applications of this principle obviously involve a great deal of grey area. But to portray the military as a group of mindless automatons is overly simplistic and shows a knowledge of the military gained only from watching Rambo and Star Ship Troopers.

Anybody on this forum who expresses pity for "the poor, brainwashed military member" needs to step down off their high horse. I am privileged to lead and serve with some exceptionally bright and motivated young men and women. They have no illusions about the complexities of the war and politics, yet they continue to serve because of a sense of duty and honor.

Faithful service and pride...but for what? Duty and honor? for what?? Why are we in Iraq? Where are the weapons of mass destruction???

I did not mean to imply that our military is a pack of mindless killers, but I am very surprised that they continue to fight an endless war when it is obvious of the Bush administration's intentions. Or maybe they have no idea of such war crimes? Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and posed no threat to the American public. It's sad we haven't even caught Osama Bin Laden. Maybe because the Bush family has major ties with the Bin Laden family with their oil business....but hey, what do I know??

But I understand pulling out of Iraq immediately is much easier said than done. It's all a big, disastrous mess. And my best guess is that Bush will leave this conflict hanging in the white house for our next president to clean up.