BRUMBEAR wrote:I think many of you are missing the point H-D pisses me off not because they can't make a good updated machine because they WON'T.
Edit your sentence to read "not because they can't make a good updated machine because they DON'T HAVE TO". Then tell me if H-D still pisses you off?
Maybe you think they need to build a fundamentally different machine. But the way they read their market, they don't think they need to. Their experience with the V-Rod probably reinforces that. Time will tell. In the meantime, there' plenty of other brands building very updated kinds of machines. Having choices is cool.
jstark47 wrote:I'd have a Softail just for chugging around on, 'cause they look cool. But it's not a practical bike for distance riding, IMO. Gummi and I disagree on this point, and he rides his Roadglide all over the place.
No, I agree with you that the SOFTAIL isn't a good long distance bike. Angie will back that one up, as she was the one who rode hers all the way out to the east coast and back on our honeymoon in '08. It's the ROAD GLIDE that we had differing opinions on; I said it's a very capable long distance mount while you thought it was more for show.
jstark47 wrote:I'd have a Softail just for chugging around on, 'cause they look cool. But it's not a practical bike for distance riding, IMO. Gummi and I disagree on this point, and he rides his Roadglide all over the place.
No, I agree with you that the SOFTAIL isn't a good long distance bike. Angie will back that one up, as she was the one who rode hers all the way out to the east coast and back on our honeymoon in '08. It's the ROAD GLIDE that we had differing opinions on; I said it's a very capable long distance mount while you thought it was more for show.
You're right, of course Mike. I was making a point quickly and brushed over the differences between FLS's on the one hand, and FLH/FLT's on the other.
No it doesn't "pee" me off when I edit it. It doesn't make sense. Harley is in trouble they are 60 some odd percent off they are closing dealers they incurred 225$ million dollars in debt the stock is struggling to break $26 a share from 60 I think. The machines are to much money for what you get and people are waking up to that in these times it's that simple.
Why don't they sell Buell there are several companies offering to buy them they could cancel some of the debt with the closing cost of Buell and the purchase of MV Augusta a real WTF moment there. I think Harley doesn't change the attitude they are gonna be an AMF again. Harley Davidson is a small company compared to the big 4 Japanese companies and the English build some real strong machines. As a primarily buy American guy that pisses me off to unless we got some tarp money ready for h-d too.
Harley Davidson knows and provides products for its core customer better than any company on the planet.
HD's biggest issues are two fold:
First, in order to keep the gears turning, HD has to move a minimum number of bikes. In order to do this, HD has had to provide financing to individuals no one else would lend money to. This means HD is in a similar situation to the housing market. The default rate on HDs financed over the last 5 years is abysmal. The only way to keep the balls in the air is to continue lending to people who can't afford motorcycles in order to retrench the defaulted loans. HD is borrowing money to fill in the hole. We recently financed a person who had to go through two co-signers just to make the numbers work.
Second, HD is curious as to whether the demand for HD motorcycles will extend beyond the baby boomers. Easy Rider means nothing to someone in their 30's. Will there be sufficient demand on the other side of the hump to keep HD alive?
As for the motorcycles, the core buyer refuses to buy anything that doesn't carry a recognizeable lineage. The core buyer likes to be able to look at a picture of an old Harley and know what model it is and then go buy the modern version. The core buyer appreciates updated engines, fuel management, chassis improvements, better brakes, better electronics as much as any other buyer. The core buyer simply isn't a spec sheet racer.
The newest HDs are modern in every sense. If HD could create a bike with OHVs and still keep the soul of an HD engine, they would do it. Any "improvements" beyond what are currently contained in the current offerings would result in fewer sales and ultimate rejection by the core buyer.
The V-Rod platform has and will never be accepted by the core buyer. The XR1200 has been a complete failure. Even the Rocker failed miserably (the vast majority purchased by those who had never owned an HD product before). These products are not bad by any stretch of the imagination. These bikes are lineage orphans.
The average HD buyer buys by the pound. There is virtually NO plastic on a HD. The core buyer expects everything to be heavy. Weight confers quality.
Now, the death of Buell. Three reasons:
1) HD is fighting for its very life. Every penny needs to be marshalled to the cause of saving HD.
2) HD doesn't want to release Buell technology in the event that it can be quickly resurrected.
3) New management had sweet nothings whispered in its ear by entrenched management seeking to grind axes and terminate Buell for good. Buell could do more with a nickel than HD could do with $100,000. This is threatening to entrenched mangement.
Even if Buell exploded and became a major player, that effort wouldn't make any real dent in the future of HD. HD made more motorcycles in 2007 than Buell made in 26 years.
A ten fold increase in Buell would provide for less than 20% of HD sales. Plus, the profit margin per Buell is far less than for HD models.
My hope is that HD will either resurrect Buell or Erik will find an alternative path to production of bikes that bear his name.
Last edited by FT BSTRD on Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
FT BSTRD wrote:
Second, HD is curious as to whether the demand for HD motorcycles will extend beyond the baby boomers. Easy Rider means nothing to someone in their 30's. Will there be sufficient demand on the other side of the hump to keep HD alive?
This is a serious problem for HD. The median age of a HD customer which is quite high to begin with, keeps going up every year.
Currently HD does not have any product that attract young buyers. So as their oldest customers die or give up motorcycling, they are not being replaced. This was actually a problem of a huge detriment that faced the management at GM for their Buick division back in the 1990s. They realized that their customers were literally dying left and right and they didn't have any product to even remotely lure young replacement buyers. Of course Buick's demographics back then make HD's buyer look like spring chicken. That being said, most people tend to drive long after they give up riding.
It's pretty interesting that as recently as five years ago, BMW and HD had essentially the same problem; an aging customer base (at the time the median customer age for both brands was 47, if I recall correctly).
BMW seems to have solved it by expanding from their traditional big-pushrod-air-cooled-twin-loving base of customers (sound familiar?) and taking risks by moving beyond sport tourers into all sorts of categories, with not a few failures along the way (cruisers? 450cc trailies? roofed scooters?). The S1000RR doesn't really appeal to me, but it seems like a really well-developed bike with the potential to open up yet another market for the brand.
To its credit, HD has been doing exactly the same thing, and I really don't get why they're less successful at it. The V-Rod, XR1200, Rocker, and the whole Dark series seem to be a bunch of awesome bikes, and that doesn't even include an entire range of really interesting Buells (RIP, but hopefully not for long). I don't entirely understand why newer (and younger) buyers aren't scooping up the XR, in particular. IMHO it's the most interesting bike HD has come up with in years.
"If you ride like there's no tomorrow, there won't be."
HYPERR wrote:
This is a serious problem for HD. The median age of a HD customer which is quite high to begin with, keeps going up every year.
Currently HD does not have any product that attract young buyers. So as their oldest customers die or give up motorcycling, they are not being replaced. This was actually a problem of a huge detriment that faced the management at GM for their Buick division back in the 1990s. They realized that their customers were literally dying left and right and they didn't have any product to even remotely lure young replacement buyers. Of course Buick's demographics back then make HD's buyer look like spring chicken. That being said, most people tend to drive long after they give up riding.
This is part of the reason HD decided to bring the Trike conversion process in house. It allowed them to have better control over model availability and quantities.
HD hopes that the Trike will keep older riders riding long after they would normally have given it up. A Trike is the last or next to last bike most HD owners will ever buy.
One additional facet that was interesting was that the demographic of average Buell owner was much older than the average sportbike rider. Buell owners were in their 30's to 40's. In many ways, Buell was cannabalizing some of the HD sales.
Mike 
