Is this bike too much for a semi beginner?

[ronboskz650sr]

It's true, this isn't rocket science or ancient oriental martial arts. I do think you can limit your learning with fear, however. I see, and speak to young, "fearless " guys who are learning to ride on new 600cc supersports.

What I see is stiff arm riding, with incorrect body position in cornering. I see rapid staight-line acceleration, followed by a perpendicular to the pavement very low speed parking lot entry. I see brakes being ridden for long periods approaching a stop light at normal traffic speeds. I see extreme tire wear in the center 2 1/2 inches of tread and release compound on the rest. I hear the engine redline on the missed shift into neutral between 1 and 2. I see nose-diving bikes during shifting and stopping at the light.

What I hear is scary stories of unintentional wheelies (yes, some people do this), scary back wheel sliding stories, and alot of "I almost" stories.

All this makes me think these guys are missing alot of the fun of riding, and probably for a longer time than a beginner should. I mean, c'mon! The curves are supposed to be the fun part, aren't they? Just beating cars to the next light would really get old for me (i realize this is me).

The experienced riders seem more like they are dancing on the bike than riding on it, trying to get it under control. They lean over pulling into Wal-mart, pulling out of Wal-mart, looking for a parking space at Wal-mart...you get the point. You see them rounding the country bends tucked in behind the faring with their heads up and arms bent...smoothly swooping around on lines well within the boundries of the lane they are in...no head hanging over into oncoming traffic. You don't hear much engine noise, relatively speaking (not talking cruisers, here), because they are on the quiet side of the power band trying not to attract attention. They don't need it...the ride is their fun.

Yes there are exceptions...there is also the average person...just like any other skill. If we don't take this anonymous forum personally, we can pool our collective knowledge to really help new folks make their decision. They may or may not do what I would do, but it is up to them in the end.

[Sev]

Bottom line is this...I think an majority of you 250cc advocates have made a leap of logic. For someone who has NEVER EVER ridden a motorcycle, the MSF exists to give them a feel of what it's all about. And you have concluded that since the MSF uses 250cc bikes, that they must be the uber-perfect beginner bike. On the contrary, though, they use them for the very reason someone else posted on another thread...because they're cheap and because they have to fit the lowest-common-denominator.

That's it...period. MSF uses them for the very reasons that 90% of riders shouldn't use them.

Which is why some of us have been advocating older ujm or smaller size cruiser for larger riders.

In the event of a smaller rider we suggest that they take a ninja either a 250 or a 500.
The argument is not that they should take a 250, but that they should NOT take a 600 because of their size. There are other options out there, and size is not a reasonable argument for a 600cc supersport.

Rather then listen to what we are saying, you are telling us what you think our argument is. No one has said that we only think you should ever start riding on a 250cc machine. We have however offered it MULTIPLE times as an option INSTEAD of the 600cc supersports.
When faced with someone of a larger stature (tall/fat/both/whatever) I personally recomend the above - ujm OR cruiser. Because they are designed to have MORE ROOM. I'm 5'10" and my legs felt cramped on a cbr and a gixxer, and that was after only a few minutes. And that is one of the main arguments we see, "I'm big so I need a big bike."
Additionally, no one has said that you cannot wreck a 250cc bike. No one has said that they are the safest thing out there. Obviously the safest would be to drive a car. But you don't see us recomending that. What we have said is that a 250-500 (SPORT BIKE) will be more forgiving of any mistakes that you might make while learning AND it carries the weight lower making it easier to balance. But you don't want to hear that either. You want to yell about your friend that learned to ride on a 1000cc HondaHawk. Your single example. Congrats you win.

[cb360]

This thread is getting a little testy. In the end everyone is going to make their own decision on what bike to learn on. I, for one will continue to make the recommendation that starting on a small less powerful bike is the most prudent advice - it's not for everyone, but I think it's fair to say that that avenue will lead the most people to lots of safe riding. There will always be exceptions to everything, but as I've said in other threads, we crawl before we walk or run. We use training wheels and then single speed bikes when we first start riding bikes. We learn how to drive on daddy's sedan or old pickup. Motorcycling is infinitely more dangerous than any of these.

[ZooTech]

You want to yell about your friend that learned to ride on a 1000cc HondaHawk. Your single example. Congrats you win.

It's not a single example...in fact, I have yet to see a 250cc bike on the road (I live and ride in Central Ohio), and nobody I know that rides has ever been on one, other than a 2-stroke dirt bike. And the majority of the people here have never been on one save for the few who actually took the MSF course, which is probably <25% of the forum membership.

Secondly, I second the older UJM recommendation...but simply because those bikes have more realistic ergos and weight...not because I think someone will die if they (God forbid) have more than 75HP at their control. Hell, my mom is only 5'2" and weighs maybe 110lbs soaking wet, and she rode an '86 Rebel 450. And I technically learned on a Ninja 600 (first bike I ever rode...illegally at the age of 16 with no endorsement) and I didn't find the power at all difficult to manage.

People like you remind me of the left-wing tree-huggers that put out that mind-blowing, stupid commercial about the "Esuvee". Like an SUV is some outta control "beast" that is bound and determined to, with a mind of its own, roll over and kill your wife and kids.

If someone of questionable dexterity asks you what bike they should buy, maybe you should say, "None". The folks who are out slamming into curbs because they can't modulate the clutch and throttle probably shouldn't be riding...and half of them probably shouldn't be driving, either.

[ronboskz650sr]

When I see a rebel 250 or especially a kawasaki eliminator 125, I can picture a young teen or my 5'0'' wife learning on one. I must admit, I can't visualize myself or anyone else I ride with ever riding one, even as beginners. I don't know why, because I learned on a Honda ct90 back in the 70's. I barely remember learning on it, except for how much fun we had on it. Obviously, I concur about the UJM. I also know of some older sportbikes with great ergos for learning on. I think those ergos go a long way toward controlling your inputs. Ergos that force a little pressure here or there can cause inadvertant inputs, even with a little experience. That's what Sev experienced when he upgraded to the 599. It's pretty hard for me to go backward in time to the true beginner stages, but I remember returning to riding after 30 years off. The kz650 I ride now is the bike I returned to riding on. The weight was a little much for a true beginner, I think. Especially for a short person, if they couldn't get feet flat. The power was fine, except on gravel or oily pavement, but most bikes probably are that way for a beginner. Who knows? Maybe it would be easier if manufacturers would label their bikes with a recommended skill level instead of leaving it up to the salespeople.

[BuzZz]

It's true, this isn't rocket science or ancient oriental martial arts. I do think you can limit your learning with fear, however. I see, and speak to young, "fearless " guys who are learning to ride on new 600cc supersports.

What I see is stiff arm riding, with incorrect body position in cornering. I see rapid staight-line acceleration, followed by a perpendicular to the pavement very low speed parking lot entry. I see brakes being ridden for long periods approaching a stop light at normal traffic speeds. I see extreme tire wear in the center 2 1/2 inches of tread and release compound on the rest. I hear the engine redline on the missed shift into neutral between 1 and 2. I see nose-diving bikes during shifting and stopping at the light.

What I hear is scary stories of unintentional wheelies (yes, some people do this), scary back wheel sliding stories, and alot of "I almost" stories.

All this makes me think these guys are missing alot of the fun of riding, and probably for a longer time than a beginner should. I mean, c'mon! The curves are supposed to be the fun part, aren't they? Just beating cars to the next light would really get old for me (i realize this is me).

The experienced riders seem more like they are dancing on the bike than riding on it, trying to get it under control. They lean over pulling into Wal-mart, pulling out of Wal-mart, looking for a parking space at Wal-mart...you get the point. You see them rounding the country bends tucked in behind the faring with their heads up and arms bent...smoothly swooping around on lines well within the boundries of the lane they are in...no head hanging over into oncoming traffic. You don't hear much engine noise, relatively speaking (not talking cruisers, here), because they are on the quiet side of the power band trying not to attract attention. They don't need it...the ride is their fun.

Yes there are exceptions...there is also the average person...just like any other skill. If we don't take this anonymous forum personally, we can pool our collective knowledge to really help new folks make their decision. They may or may not do what I would do, but it is up to them in the end.

Well put.

Kudos Ron.

[Sev]

You want to yell about your friend that learned to ride on a 1000cc HondaHawk. Your single example. Congrats you win.

It's not a single example...in fact, I have yet to see a 250cc bike on the road (I live and ride in Central Ohio), and nobody I know that rides has ever been on one, other than a 2-stroke dirt bike. And the majority of the people here have never been on one save for the few who actually took the MSF course, which is probably <25% of the forum membership.

Secondly, I second the older UJM recommendation...but simply because those bikes have more realistic ergos and weight...not because I think someone will die if they (God forbid) have more than 75HP at their control. Hell, my mom is only 5'2" and weighs maybe 110lbs soaking wet, and she rode an '86 Rebel 450. And I technically learned on a Ninja 600 (first bike I ever rode...illegally at the age of 16 with no endorsement) and I didn't find the power at all difficult to manage.

People like you remind me of the left-wing tree-huggers that put out that mind-blowing, stupid commercial about the "Esuvee". Like an SUV is some outta control "beast" that is bound and determined to, with a mind of its own, roll over and kill your wife and kids.

If someone of questionable dexterity asks you what bike they should buy, maybe you should say, "None". The folks who are out slamming into curbs because they can't modulate the clutch and throttle probably shouldn't be riding...and half of them probably shouldn't be driving, either.

I hate SUV's because the people driving them are usually oblivious and have come close to creaming me several times. The skills I learned on my first bike kept me safe however. If they manage to die because of their SUV's I'd be happy. So long as they don't take anyone else with them.

I'd rather see someone on a 250cc bike for their first couple of months then a 600 supersport, but that might be just me. Because over the internet EVERYONE is of questionable dexterity. This includes both me and yourself. Without an accurate judge of someones skill I'm not going to recomend something like a supersport. However, I stand by my statement that people should be looking at standards or cruisers for a first bike.

I'm not going to tell you what you remind me of.

[ronboskz650sr]

Thanks, BuzZz.

[Newrider42]

WOW! Four pages of info. Thanks. This seems to be a touchy subject. I have learned alot. But, just for the record, I'm 6'2, 198 lbs. and thought the Interceptor 250 I had a couple of years ago was a little small for me. Hopefully I can learn the ways of the Jedi. Just kidding.

[TechTMW]

All this makes me think these guys are missing alot of the fun of riding, and probably for a longer time than a beginner should.

Very well put Ron, Thanks!

People like you remind me of the left-wing tree-huggers that put out that mind-blowing, stupid commercial about the "Esuvee". Like an SUV is some outta control "beast" that is bound and determined to, with a mind of its own, roll over and kill your wife and kids.
either.

I'm sure you remember the Ford Explorer debacle of a few years ago - Lots of rollovers resulting in quite a few casualties. There is actually a good parallel here - because the Majority of those rollover fatalaties could have been avoided had the drivers of the vehicles had proper training in how to properly handle their "esuvees"

I don't believe that the people behind the "ESUVEE" campaign are 'left wing tree huggers'. They are trying to do what should have been done in the first place. Educate people to get them on the best path for themselves and for society in general.

I don't like tiered licensing as exists in the UK. But there is much to be said for that kind of system - mostly that it does well to get beginner bikers the proper training they need to work up to being competant veterans. In Italy, I see a plethora of bikes from 50cc to 500cc on the roads and on the highways. They seem to work fine, and many are two-up. (some are 3 and 4 up) So, to just dismiss a bike because it's smaller is just as limiting as a tiered system. (It also creates a narrow market for bikes)

I think the best answer is probably somewhere in the Middle. 250's may not be exceptional starter bikes for everyone, but I don't believe that an open class liter bike is the place for anyone to start. No, they're not instant death machines, but at the same time, they're not beginner friendly.