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CNF2002 wrote:Guns kill more family members than they kill anyone breaking in to a home...just gotta go with the statistics. Won't own a gun (at least not one in the home).

having no family not a problem for me . As for a gun as self defense, i got 4 rifles and 2 pistols, if i was being robbed id hide in the corrnor, being sleepy, not knowing where he is, and he having his gun up and ready gives him every advantage, if i have a gun hell shoot me for sure, if im just kind of hiding, might live, besides here in california, a man can get rapping your wife and holding a knife to her throat, you kill him and its not self defesnse, self defense is almost impossible to get here, id just as soon let myself be robbed and have insurance pay for it all than risk a firefight and death and or jail time.

CNF2002 wrote:diez, if you saw me trying to play Duck Hunt you would realize that I have no business owning a gun

hahaha oh man, i loved that game.



JWF

CNF2002 wrote:Guns kill more family members than they kill anyone breaking in to a home...just gotta go with the statistics. Won't own a gun (at least not one in the home).

BTW , guns don't kill people...People kill people. If you educated yourself about handguns as much as motorcycling (or any other interests) you would understand that LACK of knowlege and SAFETY are what causes alot of unintentional discharges in homes. It is our 2nd Ammendment right to protect ourselves and our homes in this country. Well, MOST of it Thank God! Just because you read junk in the papers or hear it in the news don't always make it so Joe. Soooo I do hope I didn't offend any sheeple out there.
2005 Honda Shadow600VLX
CCL carry:Ruger SP101 357/38+p
Kimber Eclipse Pro II 45 ACP

cherokeepati wrote: BTW , guns don't kill people...People kill people.

BTW, the bullets impacting the body and the loss of blood or important organ kill people



JWF

is it really nessisarry to keep a loaded 45 in your night stand though?

Depends what kind of neighborhood you live in.

Sorry folks-but if you think someone breaking into your HOME at night means you well (This happens out in the country too!) you are sadly mistaken. Unloaded?? What are you going to do then? Hit them with it?? You are correct that handguns in the hands of someone not trained in handling them DOES NOT need to own one if they are not prepared emotionally to deal with the obvious result of shooting another human.

My wife, Cherokeepati, asked me to chime in on this thread about handguns. I was reluctant to do so for fear of starting a flame war. She argued that, given my experience as a federal Special Agent/Field Firearms Instructor for over 27 years and now an armed federal Security Contractor, I had a responsibility to post my views. I am also proficient with a handgun and not just against paper targets. I am not here to argue whether the Second Amendment is a collective right or an individual right. Suffice to say, it exists no where else in the world. With your forebearance, I will limit my comments to handguns for self defense in the home and/or on your person. I was able to train my wife to a level of proficiency that enabled her to more than qualify for her Concealed Handgun Permit in North Carolina. She continues to train, under my tutelage, once a week. It is my personal opinion that anyone owning a handgun should take a state-certified Concealed Handgun Course whether or not they choose to carry. Before we started training I needed to assure myself that she had the proper mindset. Firearms ownership is an awsome responsibility. Ultimately, you must be prepared to take a human life and accept the fact that you will do so if necessary. You must be prepared to act agressively, decisively, and quickly. Shooting to wound is not an option, nor is displaying the handgun "just to scare someone". Both will get you killed. It is a documented fact, from interviews with incarcerated cop killers, that killers can read hesitation in their victim's eyes. Killing someone is not pretty. The closest depiction I have seen in the media is in "Saving Private Ryan". That said, if your mind is right, we can advance to handgun selection. Choose the biggest handgun that you can handle safely, accurately, and quickly - in that order, be it a .22 or a .45. Get training from a reputable and certified instructor. Ideally, choose a course that involves at least a week of 10 hours days in the classroom and on the range. I can get you up to speed in 24 hours ( three 8 hour days with 80% range time), but that is only scatching the surface. Then, practice, practice, practice. It takes 4,000 repetitions to ingrain a physical activity into your subconcscious in order to resond automatically to an external stimulus. Practice to maximize your proficiency and minimize your liability, much as you do after completing the MSF Course. A note to those carrying concealed, if I may. I am one of those who argues that if you have the mindset, tactics, and training, you have a social responsibility to go armed, not only to protect yourself and your family, but those who choose not to arm themselves, for whatever reason. I applaud your decision.

Well, if you want to have a gun to protect yourself, fine. I just prefere other ways of home protection. I hope you never have to use your gun on another person is all. If you do keep a loaded weapon in the house, just make sure that its kept safely.

P.S. - I own several long guns and shotguns for hunting, which I keep locked up in a gun safe. So dont think I advocate the removal of guns from the hands of the people. I would even consider going to a range for some handgun shooting if the opportunity raised itself.

cherokeepati wrote:

CNF2002 wrote:Guns kill more family members than they kill anyone breaking in to a home...just gotta go with the statistics. Won't own a gun (at least not one in the home).

BTW , guns don't kill people...People kill people. If you educated yourself about handguns as much as motorcycling (or any other interests) you would understand that LACK of knowlege and SAFETY are what causes alot of unintentional discharges in homes.

You make a very good and clear point. Yes only people kill people.


BUT
This only works up until a point.... The point of the human brain thinking rationally. Ever ridden a motorcycle whilst upset? I know I have, and I'm not proud of it. Whilst not as bad as a lot of people, reflecting on my actions, I know I was less observant of what was around me, and riding a lot more agressively. Effectively I was a danger on the road to a reasonable extent.

The same is true with handguns for me, if I had all the training, and respect for it, 99.999% of the time I would be perfectly safe with it, but sometimes it only takes 1 trivial thing to push someone over the edge. A car you'll only crash once, a handgun you have ~9 goes in a very short space of time, assuming they only had one magazine

This is why I do not want a handgun at home, because it would be endorsing the proliferation of them through out British society, increasing the chance that someone who has lost all reason, will be holding one

I know this view is rather extreme, but if 20 million people suddenly start owning handguns, I'd expect to see quite a lot of this happening.


Finally regarding crime
If everyone had a handgun to defend themselves with, crooks are more likely to shoot immediately whether you have one or not, to "be certain" you won't draw one and shoot them when they aren't looking.



Please feel free to reply your thoughts and flames everyone

First... if you are so unsure of your mental stability then maybe guns aren't a good idea for you... but I'd argue that if you are serious you shouldn't own knives, cars, motorcycles... hear the story about the guy in NYC a week or so ago who blew up his townhouse injuring 11 people, apparently in a suicide attempt? Shouldn't own a house either. In fact, if you are honestly that unsure of your mental stability I think we have the right to euthanize you preemptively for our own safety. I don't feel safe knowing self-admittedly unstable people like you are walking around... and if we put you all in mental institutions it would just create a breeding ground for militant insanity much as the American prison system has created a breeding ground for militant Islamic activity.

No? So where do you draw the line. I draw it at allowing people their freedom (including freedom to own firearms) until they demonstrate they can't handle that freedom. It's higher risk, but also a higher quality of life. That seems a fair trade off.

Frankly, I think that house in NYC illustrates a large part of the problem with the debate. People do what they are compelled to do. If they can't put a shotgun in their mouth they cause a gas leak and blow up their townhouse. If they can't use a sniper rifle they pour ATF fluid on the corners (or lay down spike strips if they are border patrol agents) on mountain roads.

You can argue that it is a percentage issue... fewer guns means a lower percentage of successful attacks (e.g. the guy who blew up his house survived, as did his 10 victims) but at that point you've got to admit the evidence on both sides. States which have liberalized their handgun laws have seen a reduction in crime. Cities which have restricted handguns (NYC, DC, etc) have seen increases that corresponded to the increase in laws. Much of the increased crime, especially massive upswings in rapes and other violent crimes, that have happened in the USA occurred after the landmark Gun Control Act of 1968. These are facts that are difficult to dispute.

The "more likely to shoot immediately" ... wrong. Liquor stores, jewelry stores, etc in the US almost universally have weapons available to employees.... yet people rob them all the time without starting off by shooting anyone. There are a fair number of people who violent crimes because they believe there will be no violence... they go in thinking nobody will be shot... and they wouldn't have gone in if they thought they would end up killing the shopkeeper or homeowner. Again, there is another percentage that commits the crime as an excuse for the mayhem... they'll commit crimes anyway.