Interesting interpretation on crimes in a war zone...

[sv-wolf]

If someone hypnotises you to moo everytime you see a glass of milk, whose fault is the mooing? The moo-er, the glass of milk, or the hypnotist?...

Just because its your brain giving the orders, doesn't mean others can't influence it

So your brain is "hypnotized". Others have control of your brain, which is controlling you into doing things you don't want.

2 Points

1- Your answer to correct this problem of evil doers hypnotizing peoples minds is that the government intervene to stop these mind controllers. Much like a Nanny stops little children from hurting themselves.

Question: We live in a democracy. (really a republic) Is not this freely elected government of, from, and by the people made up of the very same people it is supposed to protect?

Seems there is no way the government can escape the same disease that is affecting the people

Nanny is loony as the kids and you know it.

Smile for the cameras Big Brother has placed in London.
You Brits used to have a strong individualism and thirst for freedom.
Now you thirst only for mothers milk and protection - from Yourselves!
Ask yourself, who is hypnotizing who?
2- Who is this 'you' you refer to as being controlled by the brain?

Am I alone in thinking this discussion is getting fascinatingly surreal?

(Hi Kali, Hi Nibblers)

Can I join in?

[Rant warning. But hell, its warm and woolly, so why not! ]

2 Pints (Moooo!)

1 The mass hypnosis of society is real and palpable. Look at the horrors - real horrors - that politicians wreak upon defenseless populations (Iraq, Afhanistan and elswhere, on and on). Look at the callousness with which we treat the victims of mass exploitation. Who sees what is going on? Hardly anyone. Our minds have just been switched off by the hypnotic humm of political spin, and by the distorting language used by the media and corporate PR systems. It's not just the general population - us - who have to work hard to see what is in front of our noses through the fog of a mesmerising doctrinal system. I doubt very much if those who perpetrate these horrors are able to see them either. There are some politicians and journalists who, I think, can look into the face of hell and smile and go on watching, but most, I'm sure, are happy to delude themselves with the same hypnotic fluence as the rest of us: Orwell's 'doublespeak' is here and universal.

But, beyond the charmed circle of the hypnotised, there are the needles and sugar sticks of sectional self-interest which push different groups of people in different directions. So, though government, the media, big business and the military on the one side and the rest of the population on the other sing from the same zombie sheets, the two groups are goaded in different directions by self-interest. Government and business have their own agenda which they hand out to the rest of us, disguised as candy floss, to make us think it is worth our eating. And they do it with the soothing voice of the PR stage-hypnotist who has trained for years in his mindbending skills.

As a result of too much sweet, sticky sugar addling our brains the rest of us probably couldn't identify our collective self-interest even if it came up to us in a field and butted us warmly up our backsides.

So what are the policies that everyone discusses? Well what are the issues and agendas and topics for discussion? Where do they come from? Surprise, surprise, they come from politicians and the media. The establishment sets the agenda and we discuss it in the terms they kindly provide for us. Shall I have red onions today, we ask, or white onions; do I prefer brown skinned onions or scallions? And if anyone should dare to suggest to us that there are other, more interesting and much more satisfying vegetables in the world, most of us onion-eaters will laugh in their faces. Why? Because we are fed a daily diet of onions and only onions by the papers and TV.

C'mon Kali, who said we lived in a freely elected democracy. Who gave you or I the chance to choose which policies we wanted to see enacted. Every few years we go to the Polling Station. We have er... this little box here or umm... that little box there. And that is it.! And when we have marked our little box, the powers that be just do what they want anyway. If we don't like what they do, then a few more years down the line there is er... this little box here or umm... that little box there. So we stride powerfully into the Polling Station and put our mark in a different box, and choose a different government who will act in ways that are... well, remarkably similar to the outgoing one. Democracy? 'rule by the people?' Just more hypnosis. More words. Read Madison's views on the dangers of democracy, Kali - the man largely responsible for framing the American Constitution.

Example: a large majority of people in the UK were against the Iraq war. The largest political demonstration in British History (and we are very big here in political demonstrations) took place in London. Four percent of the entire population (!) marched past Downing Street and told Blairthat it didn't want war, and he went and did it anyway with a brief wave of the hand. And 100,000 innocent men women and children were blown apart, dismembered, disembowelled, poisoned or died of preventable disease. And it is still happening. And Blair got back into power, and why not, the other parties would have just gone on doing the same thing as he did, or something very like it.

2 I'm totally non-nationalistic in my approach to politics. My sympathies run crab-wise. But on this occasion (and just for you Kali, my friend), I will make an exception.

Can't deny we are moving close to the total surveillance society here in the UK. It is not just CCTV and speed cameras, and identity cards and smart cards, it is a load of other stuff as well. Right now, big government here is gearing up for its massive bi-annual collation of data. Once every two years, personal computer data is requested from all kinds of organisation all over the country. The records are matched up to see who is being naughty. Not many people are aware that this happens, until they get a knock on the door.

But as for our state of hypnosis. We are as sharp minded as ice particles in comparison to the average U.S. citizen who is subject to a propaganda war of untold proportions. It has been going on since the time of Woodrow Wilson but took a vastly more sinister turn after the Second World War when business and government instituted a trillion dollar programme whose purpose was to manipulate the public mind into something friendly to the existing power structures.

They didn't just do it through the media and through political pronoucements, they went to Hollywood, they went to schools and youth clubs, they went to sports clubs they went deep into every small community in the country with their propaganda messages that radically changed the way most Americans thought. That message was so effective that it taught the population to pride themselves on their individualism while making them intellectually subservient to power to an extraordinary degree. It is hardly surprising that for Europeans the political naivete of most Americans is staggering. Mind you, it's now started here as well.

PS. Please forgive any perceived lack of moderation in my postings. I am an up-yours, 2-finger giving Brit of Irish descent. (Well... sort of...)

I enjoyed that!

Happy biking.

[kali]

Your up Nibblet99. Pull your eyeballs away from the pretty girl in the flashing red Sexy Singles add on the right side of your computer screen.

[Kal]

To question authority in this Country is to be awake among the sleepwalkers. The overall response of normal people is that we can't change things so why bother trying.

The upsetting thing is that if everyone stood up at once and said this is wrong then things would change.

It happened in America in 1776, in Russia in 1916 and many other places around the world at various times. We just need to believe that if we act as one it will happen.

I am amused by sv-wolf's admission of his heritage. Maybe there is something that fundimmentaly questions authority in the Irish genetic make up. According to the paperwork that came with me both my parents were Irish, it was just a quirk of fate that they met in London.

[kali]

If someone hypnotises you to moo everytime you see a glass of milk, whose fault is the mooing? The moo-er, the glass of milk, or the hypnotist?...

Just because its your brain giving the orders, doesn't mean others can't influence it

So your brain is "hypnotized". Others have control of your brain, which is controlling you into doing things you don't want.

2 Points

1- Your answer to correct this problem of evil doers hypnotizing peoples minds is that the government intervene to stop these mind controllers. Much like a Nanny stops little children from hurting themselves.

Question: We live in a democracy. (really a republic) Is not this freely elected government of, from, and by the people made up of the very same people it is supposed to protect?

Seems there is no way the government can escape the same disease that is affecting the people

Nanny is loony as the kids and you know it.

Smile for the cameras Big Brother has placed in London.
You Brits used to have a strong individualism and thirst for freedom.
Now you thirst only for mothers milk and protection - from Yourselves!
Ask yourself, who is hypnotizing who?
2- Who is this 'you' you refer to as being controlled by the brain?

Am I alone in thinking this discussion is getting fascinatingly surreal?

(Hi Kali, Hi Nibblers)

Can I join in?

[Rant warning. But hell, its warm and woolly, so why not! ]

2 Pints (Moooo!)

1 The mass hypnosis of society is real and palpable. Look at the horrors - real horrors - that politicians wreak upon defenseless populations (Iraq, Afhanistan and elswhere, on and on). Look at the callousness with which we treat the victims of mass exploitation. Who sees what is going on? Hardly anyone. Our minds have just been switched off by the hypnotic humm of political spin, and by the distorting language used by the media and corporate PR systems. It's not just the general population - us - who have to work hard to see what is in front of our noses through the fog of a mesmerising doctrinal system. I doubt very much if those who perpetrate these horrors are able to see them either. There are some politicians and journalists who, I think, can look into the face of hell and smile and go on watching, but most, I'm sure, are happy to delude themselves with the same hypnotic fluence as the rest of us: Orwell's 'doublespeak' is here and universal.

But, beyond the charmed circle of the hypnotised, there are the needles and sugar sticks of sectional self-interest which push different groups of people in different directions. So, though government, the media, big business and the military on the one side and the rest of the population on the other sing from the same zombie sheets, the two groups are goaded in different directions by self-interest. Government and business have their own agenda which they hand out to the rest of us, disguised as candy floss, to make us think it is worth our eating. And they do it with the soothing voice of the PR stage-hypnotist who has trained for years in his mindbending skills.

As a result of too much sweet, sticky sugar addling our brains the rest of us probably couldn't identify our collective self-interest even if it came up to us in a field and butted us warmly up our backsides.

So what are the policies that everyone discusses? Well what are the issues and agendas and topics for discussion? Where do they come from? Surprise, surprise, they come from politicians and the media. The establishment sets the agenda and we discuss it in the terms they kindly provide for us. Shall I have red onions today, we ask, or white onions; do I prefer brown skinned onions or scallions? And if anyone should dare to suggest to us that there are other, more interesting and much more satisfying vegetables in the world, most of us onion-eaters will laugh in their faces. Why? Because we are fed a daily diet of onions and only onions by the papers and TV.

C'mon Kali, who said we lived in a freely elected democracy. Who gave you or I the chance to choose which policies we wanted to see enacted. Every few years we go to the Polling Station. We have er... this little box here or umm... that little box there. And that is it.! And when we have marked our little box, the powers that be just do what they want anyway. If we don't like what they do, then a few more years down the line there is er... this little box here or umm... that little box there. So we stride powerfully into the Polling Station and put our mark in a different box, and choose a different government who will act in ways that are... well, remarkably similar to the outgoing one. Democracy? 'rule by the people?' Just more hypnosis. More words. Read Madison's views on the dangers of democracy, Kali - the man largely responsible for framing the American Constitution.

Example: a large majority of people in the UK were against the Iraq war. The largest political demonstration in British History (and we are very big here in political demonstrations) took place in London. Four percent of the entire population (!) marched past Downing Street and told Blairthat it didn't want war, and he went and did it anyway with a brief wave of the hand. And 100,000 innocent men women and children were blown apart, dismembered, disembowelled, poisoned or died of preventable disease. And it is still happening. And Blair got back into power, and why not, the other parties would have just gone on doing the same thing as he did, or something very like it.

The US 2 party system is generally seen as a more stable system then Parliamentary. We had 2 Yale frat boys graduated 1 year apart and belonged to the same Skull and Bones fraternity. The liberal democrat was admonishing Bush for not attacking Iran yet! Our winner take all system is much easier for the oligarchs to control. Real 3rd parties are not an option in the US and campaign laws drafted by the 2 existent party's set money and percentage thresholds, and many other arcane discriminatory laws designed to prevent any challenge to their power.

Labor seems to have drifted pretty far right to me. How is it more Brits didn't switch to another party?

2 I'm totally non-nationalistic in my approach to politics. My sympathies run crab-wise. But on this occasion (and just for you Kali, my friend), I will make an exception.

Can't deny we are moving close to the total surveillance society here in the UK. It is not just CCTV and speed cameras, and identity cards and smart cards, it is a load of other stuff as well. Right now, big government here is gearing up for its massive bi-annual collation of data. Once every two years, personal computer data is requested from all kinds of organization all over the country. The records are matched up to see who is being naughty. Not many people are aware that this happens, until they get a knock on the door.

But as for our state of hypnosis. We are as sharp minded as ice particles in comparison to the average U.S. citizen

It's all these damn preachers.

who is subject to a propaganda war of untold proportions. It has been going on since the time of Woodrow Wilson

Isn't that your fault? Fabian Society > Edward House > Woodrow Wilson

but took a vastly more sinister turn after the Second World War when business and government instituted a trillion dollar programme whose purpose was to manipulate the public mind into something friendly to the existing power structures.

They didn't just do it through the media and through political pronoucements, they went to Hollywood, they went to schools and youth clubs, they went to sports clubs they went deep into every small community in the country with their propaganda messages that radically changed the way most Americans thought. That message was so effective that it taught the population to pride themselves on their individualism while making them intellectually subservient to power to an extraordinary degree. It is hardly surprising that for Europeans the political naivete of most Americans is staggering. Mind you, it's now started here as well.

PS. Please forgive any perceived lack of moderation in my postings. I am an up-yours, 2-finger giving Brit of Irish descent. (Well... sort of...)

I enjoyed that!

Happy biking.

One of the problems with 'Americans' is, Just what is an American?

We really are a mongrel society made up of so many different groups on a scale nearly equal to all of western Europe in size and population but encompassing disparate groups of people from all over the world. Such a high percentage of immigrants are just trying to get by. The rest have been sold the 'American Dream' of working yourself to death so they can die rich and will have made it!

Did I mention the preachers?

[kali]

To question authority in this Country is to be awake among the sleepwalkers. The overall response of normal people is that we can't change things so why bother trying.

The upsetting thing is that if everyone stood up at once and said this is wrong then things would change.

It happened in America in 1776, in Russia in 1916 and many other places around the world at various times. We just need to believe that if we act as one it will happen.

I am amused by sv-wolf's admission of his heritage. Maybe there is something that fundimmentaly questions authority in the Irish genetic make up. According to the paperwork that came with me both my parents were Irish, it was just a quirk of fate that they met in London.

How many partys do you have to choose from?

[Kal]

Dear Gods

There are three main parties.

Labour, Conservative, Liberal Democrates

Then there are anumber of parties which are serious enough to get seats and to bring their own agenda to mainstream notice but not actually be a threat to power

British National Party, The Green party etc.

Then there are all sorts of others

Monster Raving Looney Party,

And then there are individual candidates usually standing on one issue


The mongrol identity thing isn't a problem unique to the States. Leicester is set to be the first City in the UK to have a majority 'ethnic' population whatever that means. There is an awful lot of fear her that the British national identity is under threat.

[kali]

PS. Please forgive any perceived lack of moderation in my postings. I am an up-yours, 2-finger giving Brit of Irish descent. (Well... sort of...)

I enjoyed that!

Tell us how you really feel!

Sort of cathartic, isn't it.

[sv-wolf]

PS. Please forgive any perceived lack of moderation in my postings. I am an up-yours, 2-finger giving Brit of Irish descent. (Well... sort of...)

I enjoyed that!

Tell us how you really feel!

Sort of cathartic, isn't it.

Mmmmmmm! I sound off regularly on TMW, though perhaps I've never given into bad temper quite like that before.

Here's a rather silly little mathematical example, but it makes a point I think.

Let's be very conservative. Let us suppose we live in a very simple world (!). Let us say that there are only ten unlinked issues or proposals significant enough to deserve our attention (I can think of at least double this without even writing them down but let's just say ten). And let us say that these issues or proposals are very straightforward ones (since when?!) - let us say that they each admit of only two points of view: for or against.

This means that on an extremely conservative reckoning there are two to the power of ten possible ways you or I could orientate ourselves to the burning issues of our time. In other words there are 1024 different sets of opinion possible on these matters.

And to ensure that public opinion is properly represented in the hallowed corridors of power we have what...? We have two parties effectively to choose from in the UK (three, if the electorate make a mighty effort to catapult the Lib Dems into government through the first-past-the-post system.)

And these two parties differ from each other how much?

They each claim to be significantly different to the other If you analyse those apparent differences within the terms of the debate which they have set (ie, if you only consider the issues which they tell you are significant) then you might be forgiven for believing that their views are moderately divergent. If you analyse those differences within a wider philosophical, historical or moral framework, they dwindle to nothing. If you look at what political parties do as opposed to what they say, then we live virtually in a one party state.

For instance, we are constantly told (and therefore believe) that, historically, the Labour Party was the party of Nationalisation while the Conservatives were the party of commercial and industrial independence and initiative? So how many people are aware that if you compare the gross value of the enterprises nationalised by the Labour Party with those nationalised by the Conservative Party you would find almost no difference at all. In fact, until the current fashion for privatisation, the Conservatives were marginally ahead in that race.

And how well established is the idea that the historical Labour Party was the party of the working class, while the Conservatives favoured big business? There is no better example than this of the fact that people would rather believe what they are told than what they can see with their own eyes. What, for instance, was just about the first thing an elected Labour Party did on each occasion it got into power? Its first act was invariably to establish a pay freeze and start negotiating with the Unions to reduce or curtail rises in wages. Because of its relationship with the Unions it was more successful that the Conservatives ever were at stifling working class ambitions.

Who was the first party to start dismantling the welfare state. Remember? The Labour Party of course. You can take any issue you like and if you bother to check the facts you will find no particular difference between the two parties. Despite what they say, and even what they might intend, the parties will pursue (must pursue) the interests of big business above all other concerns.

If you really look at the Labour Party and the Conservative Party and try to work out the differences between them, the only thing I can see is this: that the Labour Party tends to favour the interests of Industrial Capital more while the Conservatives tend to favour those of the financial sector and the City of London.

Should we be surprised?

[sv-wolf]

Dear Gods

There are three main parties.

Labour, Conservative, Liberal Democrates

Then there are anumber of parties which are serious enough to get seats and to bring their own agenda to mainstream notice but not actually be a threat to power

British National Party, The Green party etc.

Then there are all sorts of others

Monster Raving Looney Party,

And then there are individual candidates usually standing on one issue


The mongrol identity thing isn't a problem unique to the States. Leicester is set to be the first City in the UK to have a majority 'ethnic' population whatever that means. There is an awful lot of fear her that the British national identity is under threat.

In my experience, most Americans are very surprised to discover how many UK citizens are Black or of Asian descent - not Anglos at all. London is the most cosmopolitan city in the world. Riding on the London Underground you can hear more languages being spoken than anywhere else on the planet.

[kali]

Dear Gods

There are three main parties.

Labour, Conservative, Liberal Democrates

Then there are anumber of parties which are serious enough to get seats and to bring their own agenda to mainstream notice but not actually be a threat to power

British National Party, The Green party etc.

Then there are all sorts of others

Monster Raving Looney Party,

And then there are individual candidates usually standing on one issue


The mongrol identity thing isn't a problem unique to the States. Leicester is set to be the first City in the UK to have a majority 'ethnic' population whatever that means. There is an awful lot of fear her that the British national identity is under threat.

In my experience, most Americans are very surprised to discover how many UK citizens are Black or of Asian descent - not Anglos at all. London is the most cosmopolitan city in the world. Riding on the London Underground you can hear more languages being spoken than anywhere else on the planet.

Even some of us dumb yankees know London is refered to as 'The City' in the financial world.