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jonnythan wrote:

Sev wrote:

jonnythan wrote:Riders without formal training are far more likely to die in an accident than riders with formal training.

Please get some.

Based upon what facts?

I'm not getting into another argument with you. You argue just to argue, hanging on to the slightest sliver of doubt in an argument as a justification for taking a contrary view.

Ok, how about me. I'm curious where you base your info from. Where are your facts?

I don't have much to add other than my own observation about the MSF:

Nothing they teach in the MSF is rocket science. Nearly all of it is common sense, but just because it isn't difficult doesn't mean it that it is intuitive. If I'd skipped the MSF and spilled because of some dumb thing and then had whatever lesson might've prevented the spill explained to me, I'm not going to think 'gosh, I never would've figured out,' I'm going to think 'duh! why didn't I think of that?'

There are enough of those 'why didn't I think of that?' issues that the MSF does provide that I would certainly call it invaluable. Even a great teacher/friend/family member who has been riding for years may take something for granted and not mention it; an organization like the MSF is all about figuring out what should not be taken for granted and making sure you understand it. They have the resources and the institutional memory to assemble all of those things into a course.

By no means is it impossible or even difficult to learn all of that stuff on your own, though. I'd rather share the road with a level-headed guy on a bike appropriate to his skill level who is wearing full gear and hadn't takent he MSF than with some of my fellow MSF-tards who already owned their mach seven crotch rockets when they took the course. One dude had a supersport and got 20 points off his test (the maximum). d'oh!

Septimus wrote:I don't have much to add other than my own observation about the MSF:

Nothing they teach in the MSF is rocket science. Nearly all of it is common sense, but just because it isn't difficult doesn't mean it that it is intuitive. If I'd skipped the MSF and spilled because of some dumb thing and then had whatever lesson might've prevented the spill explained to me, I'm not going to think 'gosh, I never would've figured out,' I'm going to think 'duh! why didn't I think of that?'

There are enough of those 'why didn't I think of that?' issues that the MSF does provide that I would certainly call it invaluable. Even a great teacher/friend/family member who has been riding for years may take something for granted and not mention it; an organization like the MSF is all about figuring out what should not be taken for granted and making sure you understand it. They have the resources and the institutional memory to assemble all of those things into a course.

By no means is it impossible or even difficult to learn all of that stuff on your own, though. I'd rather share the road with a level-headed guy on a bike appropriate to his skill level who is wearing full gear and hadn't takent he MSF than with some of my fellow MSF-tards who already owned their mach seven crotch rockets when they took the course. One dude had a supersport and got 20 points off his test (the maximum). d'oh!

Good point. I met a guy who wasn't the greatest rider and I viewed many mistakes, or, er, things I would have never done while riding, yet, he took the MSF course . Goes to show ya, even taking the MSF course isn't a guarantee you'll be a skilled rider.

A finally note from me, I think we're all motorcycle riding guys/gals for different reasons and rhythms (and hopefully descent human beings) whatever they may be. If you have no experience at ALL of riding, the course, I believe, is a must. If you have lots of off-road or more then normal experience's with 2 wheels (no, not bicycles ), it will come more natuarlly to you then a brand spanking new rider. Although, I believe that the course is NOT a must for those novices/vets to the 2 wheel world but a definite +PLUS+ and I don't think anyone would disagree with me there. I'll say this for a LAST time, COMMON SENSE AND SITUATIONAL AWARENESS is vital for our 2 wheeled world.

I didnt take the msf but I cant say Ive had the problems youve had. I rode my bike in an empty parking lot across the street from my apartments for 2 weeks before I ever went on the road. I probably should have ridden in the parking lot for a month but It seemed to work out ok. I also read everything I could get my hands on about riding. The only wreck Ive suffered happened after 6 months of riding and it was due to rain, bad road conditions and stupidity on my part. Other then that and maybe one incident of getting on the front brakes in a corner when I didnt know any better I have been good(I didnt wreck, forced myself to release the break and lean the bike back over). Been riding for 3 years now.

Wow...I read most of the responses....I am a student of a Motor Cop....does that count as formal training?

I have been riding since Oct 2001...I am approaching 90K on multiple bikes over that course of time....no accidents to damage to me or my bikes. Not to say I haven't done stupid things that I learned from. Things I have no idea if the MSF course would of helped or not?

But what I do believe is that time & experience in seat and good ole common sense should get you through.....of course professional training probably is not a bad idea......

Rubber side down.......bugs in your teeth!!!

took my road test 25 years ago on a CB750 honda