Excellent figure 8

[TEvo]

:::
If you are going to advocate nobody practice until they take a course why not advocate that nobody should ride on the street until they have taken a course? That would take 90% of riders off the street.
:::

Actually, we do. But the MSF is not the department of motor vehicles. We can't enforce anything. Only advocate.

But the question remains unaswered: What guidance is there to ensure an untrained rider is practicing the right things?

:::
The instructors' advice is persuading very few riders. what can be done to improve that situation?
:::

There's a saying, "You can lead a horse to water...". Based on the large number of not only untrained (and arguably unpracticed) riders out there, there are a large number of *unlicensed* riders. Again, neither the MSF nor the community of rider educators have enforcement powers. All we can do is ensure there is available and accessible formal training.

:::
I don't agree that riding around is a substitute for drills and exercises.
:::

And I don't agree that parking lot drills and exercises is a substitute for actual on the road experience and the feedback and reinforcement that proper risk managed riding in a dynamic environment (i.e traffic) provides *once a baseline level of motorcycle operation and proficiency is attained*.

:::
Any rider who thinks he no longer needs drills and exercises to maintain skills.
:::

So you think once you've practiced enough, you are an expert rider and never have to practice again? This sounds contrary to what you've been preaching.

:::
Pretty much the same as my definition.
:::
And you can learn situational awareness and how to quickly and accurately predict traffic by doing on-bike drills exclusively in a parking lot?

[beginner]

I don't need to practice panic stops and evasion manuevers daily to be able to use them at need. Nine months of the year I commute through heavy traffic, some of it high speed, 62 miles round trip per day. I've been doing it for four years. My skills mastery is sufficient to keep me alive and thriving on the road.

That's because you are an expert. I'm not an expert. I still need to practice. A lot of riders are in the same situation as me. Don't they need more support for practice, at least until they are experts like you?

If your on-road experience is as minimal as you've presented in your other thread, you're not qualified to make pronouncements about what skills are used in daily riding.

My goal is to be able to maneuver the bike somewhere close to it's capabilities and get there by practice. I don't think actual emergencies are the best time to practice.

What you choose to believe for your own riding is your business, but I'm concerned noobs might read some of these threads and mistake your passion for your particular viewpoint as expertise.

I don't think encouraging beginners to practice is questionable.

I submit an expert rider is a rider who possesses but does not have to employ expert skills because he/she can identify hazardous situations ahead of time such that emergency manuevering is not needed.

+1000!!! And you won't learn this in a parking lot...

In my experience skills that are not used fade away.

[TEvo]

:::
I don't think encouraging beginners to practice is questionable.
:::
In my experience skills that are not used fade away.
:::

In summation, there is quite a bit that I agree with. Practice *is* good. There is no debate there. I just question where you are getting the idea that the MSF curricula or its instructors are saying that practice is not necessary nor advocated, with or without formal instruction.

I've been riding since 1994 and for several years, had no other form of personal transportation other than my bike. I've seen a fair share of different riding situations and encountered a good representation of traffic, road and environmental hazards in this length of time. However, I definitely don't consider myself as knowing all there is to know.

Heck yeah I still practice. I just happen to incorporate "practice" in different ways other than spending hours doing drills in a static environment.

:::
My goal is to be able to maneuver the bike somewhere close to it's capabilities and get there by practice. I don't think actual emergencies are the best time to practice.
:::

As a suggestion, if you don't already, I would encourage incorporating some wet/loose pavement practice into your personal "curriculum". On the street, the pavement is typically imperfect unlike a typical parking lot.

[Lion_Lady]

If I belonged to the motorcycle equilivent of an equestrian club with a riding master, and other riders to watch, progress would be faster. Too bad there is no such thing.

This is exactly why an MSF or equivalent Motorcycle Class is a good idea. It provides feedback to help you move forward, even if just for a short time.

The new rider needs to be convinced to follow a prudent plan when that short time is over.

As an instructor, I try to convince students to practice/reinforce their newly acquired skills before venturing out on the roads. Unfortunately, I cannot force anyone to do anything of the sort. In fact, if I, or the MSF, or the MVA that oversees the training I do, TRIED to force newly licensed riders to practice, the whole program would probably be shut down by the ACLU. After all, I teach in the USA where freedom of choice is valued above all.

So... I must satisfy myself with doing my best to ensure they've at least got a good basic understanding and grasp of the skills taught in the course, before I sign the piece of paper that enables them to get their "M" endorsement. I make a final effort to promote practice as I shake their hands and we go our separate ways.

beginner, It is admirable that you've found in yourself the incentive to dedicate so much time to practicing your skills. I have to wonder at the value of it all, if you have had no person to person input on your self-determined technique. If you won't take a "recognized" training course, maybe you can find someone with good skills to observe your riding, and offer some pointers.

As you are certainly aware from your equestrian experience, getting live feedback, WHILE YOU'RE RIDING is invaluable in improving and honing skills.

P

[MrShake]

Hundreds of hours of drills and exercises, spread over years, is a necessity.

This is where we are going to have to disagree. Your decided level or amount of "drills" are not, in my mind nessesary. You Start by learning a foundation and getting the help of others (Class Instruction). You reinforce those skills with practice and drills. You become a master by using those skills in everyday or real world experiances

How much drills and exercises do you recommend for beginners? Nobody uses emergency maneuvering skills everyday unless they practice them every day.

Here is where your mistaken. And perhaps its not every day, but I consistently have to utilizee heavy breaking, swerving, decreasing radius turns, looking into turns, and other skills when riding in traffic.
I LEARNED those skills in the MSF. Then I practiced riding around the local streets and finally just started riding to work. Probably 2 or 3 weeks after the MSF I was on the street USING the skills I was TAUGHT and PRACTICED.

Now, to answer your question... how much drills and exercies do I recomend for beginners? I don't think that you can answer that without talking to the specific rider.
I would recommend a beginning rider do the following:
1. Take the MSF Course (or other riding course)
2. Purchase a low Power-Weight Ratio bike that they feel comfortable on
3. Ride carefully around their Neighborhood practicing skills.
4. Find a close parking lot to practice specific skills as laid out by the MSF
5. As your comfort level increases, expand your range.

There is no number of hours, or number of drills thats a magic number. You have to build your confidence, then believe you can accomplish what your set out to do.

Beginner, your putting a lot of words into other people's mouths. We all advocate practice here. PLP is valuable, but can not teach you everything you need to learn. You CAN and WILL learn by riding every day in real-world situations. And, the AMOUNT of PLP your advocating is excessive.

[ofblong]

sigh and still no one listens to the fact beginner is just trying to prove he is right when its obvious he is just trolling here. He needs to be banned because its obvious his only motive is to turn true beginners away from real encouragment and to NOT ride until you have taken the MSF course. For me I STAYED OFF the bike UNTIL after I took the MSF course. I would rather be safe and not ride till the MSF so that I get trained how to CORRECTLY do the right practice skills than do them wrong and have to undo the incorrect ways to correctly do the correct ways.

as for practice everyday in a parking lot... NO ONE needs to do that unless they are truly incapable of learning. I would say when I ride 5 out of 7 days I have to use my skills to avoid an accident. out of my just shy of 3 years riding only ONCE have I had to use emergency braking to avoid an accident because I PAY ATTENTION to whats going on around me.

[TEvo]

I wasn't at the whole "MSF or self-learning" thread-slash-love fest
viewtopic.php?t=31227 but as far as I can tell this is all good natured discourse?

[TEvo]

Motorcycle Center in Villa Park, IL has a demo Multistrada 1100S they letting go of...

http://www.teammcc.com/
scroll down to bottom...

[beginner]

What guidance is there to ensure an untrained rider is practicing the right things?

There is nothing to insure that people who take a course practice the right things unless they are taking a class with recurring lessons.

:::The instructors' advice is persuading very few riders. what can be done to improve that situation?:::

There's a saying, "You can lead a horse to water...". Based on the large number of not only untrained (and arguably unpracticed) riders out there, there are a large number of *unlicensed* riders. Again, neither the MSF nor the community of rider educators have enforcement powers. All we can do is ensure there is available and accessible formal training.

Something the MSF could do, as I suggested earlier is make a 6th recommendation, that riders be "life-long practicers" and elaborate on that.

And I don't agree that parking lot drills and exercises is a substitute for actual on the road experience and the feedback and reinforcement that proper risk managed riding in a dynamic environment (i.e traffic) provides *once a baseline level of motorcycle operation and proficiency is attained*.

Practice and riding around aren't mutually exclusive. It's possible to do both. I do both. Most people ride around and tell themselves that riding around is all the practice they need. I don't agree with that.

So you think once you've practiced enough, you are an expert rider and never have to practice again? This sounds contrary to what you've been preaching.

The definition I offered is what I observe in the riding community. In most sports the experts practice more than the beginners. In motorcycle riding it's the reverse.

And you can learn situational awareness and how to quickly and accurately predict traffic by doing on-bike drills exclusively in a parking lot?

Drills and exercises in a parking is safer than riding in traffic. It seems prudent to develop significant skills before plunging into traffic. What beginners are doing now is riding in traffic before skills are developed. Isn't it safer to do the reverse?

[beginner]

He needs to be banned because its obvious his only motive is to turn true beginners away from real encouragment and to NOT ride until you have taken the MSF course.

I don't say people shouldn't take a course. I think riders should be advised to do drills and exercises and take a course. If they don't take the course they should still practice. And the training courses should recommend riders be life long practicers.

For me I STAYED OFF the bike UNTIL after I took the MSF course.

I wasn't aware of motorcycle training until after the bike was home.

I would rather be safe and not ride till the MSF so that I get trained how to CORRECTLY do the right practice skills than do them wrong and have to undo the incorrect ways to correctly do the correct ways.

I'm sure you did the right thing. In the mean time it should be possible for people who practice to discuss practice.

as for practice everyday in a parking lot... NO ONE needs to do that unless they are truly incapable of learning. I would say when I ride 5 out of 7 days I have to use my skills to avoid an accident. out of my just shy of 3 years riding only ONCE have I had to use emergency braking to avoid an accident because I PAY ATTENTION to whats going on around me.

How much practice someone needs should depend on their skills and what they want for a safety margin. I find the most reliable measure of my current skill level is to test that in an exercise. On the first ride of the day I need 15 minutes of maneuvering before I'm riding as well as the day before. I'm aware that motor police and others warm up before heading on to the street. You may not need to take those precautions but I don't see why you need to argue against them.