Total Motorcycle Community Forums

Grey Thumper wrote:It's pretty interesting that as recently as five years ago, BMW and HD had essentially the same problem; an aging customer base (at the time the median customer age for both brands was 47, if I recall correctly).

BMW seems to have solved it by expanding from their traditional big-pushrod-air-cooled-twin-loving base of customers (sound familiar?) and taking risks by moving beyond sport tourers into all sorts of categories, with not a few failures along the way (cruisers? 450cc trailies? roofed scooters?). The S1000RR doesn't really appeal to me, but it seems like a really well-developed bike with the potential to open up yet another market for the brand.

To its credit, HD has been doing exactly the same thing, and I really don't get why they're less successful at it. The V-Rod, XR1200, Rocker, and the whole Dark series seem to be a bunch of awesome bikes, and that doesn't even include an entire range of really interesting Buells (RIP, but hopefully not for long). I don't entirely understand why newer (and younger) buyers aren't scooping up the XR, in particular. IMHO it's the most interesting bike HD has come up with in years.

The difference is that BMW owners aren't as dedicated to model lineage as HD owners are. BMW has prided itself on progression of technology. Even though a current GSA shares a basic architecture with an R65, they are world apart. HD owners expect to have a bike that is only as modern as the basic architecture will allow.

If BMW owners refused to buy anything but an R65 and viewed any other BMW offering as not a "real" BMW, you'd have a VERY refined R65. It would just not be able to do anything more than the basis architecture allows.

Grey Thumper wrote:
To its credit, HD has been doing exactly the same thing, and I really don't get why they're less successful at it. The V-Rod, XR1200, Rocker, and the whole Dark series seem to be a bunch of awesome bikes, and that doesn't even include an entire range of really interesting Buells (RIP, but hopefully not for long). I don't entirely understand why newer (and younger) buyers aren't scooping up the XR, in particular. IMHO it's the most interesting bike HD has come up with in years.

I agree that the XR1200 is a very interesting bike. Especially the XR1200X.

That being said, I don't see how this bike would appeal to young buyers. It is clearly targeted toward buyers that know about the XR750 and HD's dirtrack heritage. I would think the target buyer would be someone that would have otherwise bought something like the Ducati Monster 1100.

FT BSTRD wrote:
This is part of the reason HD decided to bring the Trike conversion process in house. It allowed them to have better control over model availability and quantities.

HD hopes that the Trike will keep older riders riding long after they would normally have given it up. A Trike is the last or next to last bike most HD owners will ever buy.

This is a very interesting example here. It is the total opposite of the normal strategy to attract younger buyers to replace riders no longer able or willing to ride.
Here is a strategy that is designed to prolongs the riding career of their aging customers.

FT BSTRD wrote: One additional facet that was interesting was that the demographic of average Buell owner was much older than the average sportbike rider. Buell owners were in their 30's to 40's. In many ways, Buell was cannabalizing some of the HD sales.

I really don't think so. Buell bikes are so different from most Harley bikes. I think most of Buell sales were conquest sales from other brands like BMW, Ducati, Katoom, Triumph, and the Big Four.

Grey Thumper wrote:To its credit, HD has been doing exactly the same thing, and I really don't get why they're less successful at it. The V-Rod, XR1200, Rocker, and the whole Dark series seem to be a bunch of awesome bikes, and that doesn't even include an entire range of really interesting Buells (RIP, but hopefully not for long). I don't entirely understand why newer (and younger) buyers aren't scooping up the XR, in particular. IMHO it's the most interesting bike HD has come up with in years.

XR1200 is the most interesting Harley in a generation. It sure caught my attention when it came out. But when I started being analytical, it doesn't offer much more than a Hinckley Triumph Bonneville - and it weighs 100lbs more. So that's the problem with the XR- they need to make it lighter, much lighter.

V-rod, I agree with you. If I was in the market for a power cruiser, I'd give the V-rod very serious consideration. Maybe the power cruiser market just isn't that big?

Rocker- the time for "factory customs" has come and gone. Honda made the same mistake.

Dark series- just cosmetic rehashes of existing bikes.

Their "innovations" aren't resonating with the market, particularly beyond the traditional Harley core. OTOH, I read somewhere they sell absolutely every CVO bike they can make. Their core market apparently doesn't want innovation, and the rest of the market doesn't want Harleys. They need to break the mold in order to grow. Correctly handled, Buell could have done that for them, but you can't sell mold-breaking innovation in Harley dealerships- they needed a different distribution channel.

HYPERR wrote: I really don't think so. Buell bikes are so different from most Harley bikes. I think most of Buell sales were conquest sales from other brands like BMW, Ducati, Katoom, Triumph, and the Big Four.

I agree that they are different, but HD Management didn't understand that the older folks who were buying Buells wouldn't have bought an HD product any way.

jstark47 wrote:XR1200 is the most interesting Harley in a generation. It sure caught my attention when it came out. But when I started being analytical, it doesn't offer much more than a Hinckley Triumph Bonneville - and it weighs 100lbs more. So that's the problem with the XR- they need to make it lighter, much lighter.

V-rod, I agree with you. If I was in the market for a power cruiser, I'd give the V-rod very serious consideration. Maybe the power cruiser market just isn't that big?

Rocker- the time for "factory customs" has come and gone. Honda made the same mistake.

Dark series- just cosmetic rehashes of existing bikes.

Their "innovations" aren't resonating with the market, particularly beyond the traditional Harley core. OTOH, I read somewhere they sell absolutely every CVO bike they can make. Their core market apparently doesn't want innovation, and the rest of the market doesn't want Harleys. They need to break the mold in order to grow. Correctly handled, Buell could have done that for them, but you can't sell mold-breaking innovation in Harley dealerships- they needed a different distribution channel.

The XR1200 was never meant to be part of the American market. There are better standards with better motors and better packages . If you were in the UK and wanted something different than your buddies with Triumphs, you bought an XR1200.

European sales are actually quite good for the XR1200.

What is funny is that the V-Rod is a fantastic power cruiser, better IMHO than the M109, but HD owners aren't buying power cruisers. A GSXR owner looking for a power cruiser is more likely to buy an M109 and never give a V-Rod a look. Your core customers can't flip sport bike guys off on the weekend and expect these same folks to come in and buy your products on Monday.


We currently have two 2009 CVO Fat Bobs sitting on the floor heavily discounted. Cruisers aren't selling. Here's what is selling:

Street Glides
Ultra Glides
Heritage Soft Tails

We are selling the occasional Wide Glide. We sell a few of the other variety but nearly at the same level as the others.

The best selling bike is the Ultra Classic Limited with the 103ci package. We can't keep those in stock. They are sold before they hit the floor.


The good dealers for Buell were REALLY good. The bad dealers for Buell were REALLY bad.

Buell could have existed happilly within the HD network were the bad dealers given the boot and the good dealers given marketing dollars.

FT BSTRD wrote: The XR1200 was never meant to be part of the American market. There are better standards with better motors and better packages . If you were in the UK and wanted something different than your buddies with Triumphs, you bought an XR1200.

European sales are actually quite good for the XR1200.

Are we going to get the XR1200X in the US?

FT BSTRD wrote:

jstark47 wrote:V-rod, I agree with you. If I was in the market for a power cruiser, I'd give the V-rod very serious consideration. Maybe the power cruiser market just isn't that big?

European sales are actually quite good for the XR1200.

What is funny is that the V-Rod is a fantastic power cruiser, better IMHO than the M109, but HD owners aren't buying power cruisers. A GSXR owner looking for a power cruiser is more likely to buy an M109 and never give a V-Rod a look. Your core customers can't flip sport bike guys off on the weekend and expect these same folks to come in and buy your products on Monday.

+1 on the XR1200. From what I've seen/heard it seems like a fantastic bike, and I tend to have a more European taste for the bikes I want.

Keep in mind that stock for stock, the completely street legal M109R is just as fast as the Destroyer (the fastest version of the V-Rod) and is about 15K cheaper to boot. Drop that 15K into tuning it and it will demolish the Destroyer.
Plus if you really want the quarter mile times you just take a Busa or a Big Ninja to the track. And again, 15-17K cheaper.
Plus stock for stock a base model V-Rod has an MSRP of around 15K while the stock M109 has an MSRP of around 14K. So the M109R is about a grand cheaper, which you can use for comfort items, as well as it's faster/more powerful.
As for looks though, the V-Rod has it hands down! The shroud on that M109R is ugly!

And just my 2 cents worth, the XR1200 and the V-Rod series are the only HDs I would ever spend money on, but both would get serious consideration if I was looking for a power or performance cruiser.

HYPERR wrote:
Are we going to get the XR1200X in the US?

Don't know. I know we don't care if we EVER see another XR1200. We had three. I started in June. We just sold the last of the three two weeks ago.

That's a really long time for a new bike to sit on the floor unsold.

Wrider wrote:

FT BSTRD wrote:

jstark47 wrote:V-rod, I agree with you. If I was in the market for a power cruiser, I'd give the V-rod very serious consideration. Maybe the power cruiser market just isn't that big?

European sales are actually quite good for the XR1200.

What is funny is that the V-Rod is a fantastic power cruiser, better IMHO than the M109, but HD owners aren't buying power cruisers. A GSXR owner looking for a power cruiser is more likely to buy an M109 and never give a V-Rod a look. Your core customers can't flip sport bike guys off on the weekend and expect these same folks to come in and buy your products on Monday.

+1 on the XR1200. From what I've seen/heard it seems like a fantastic bike, and I tend to have a more European taste for the bikes I want.

Keep in mind that stock for stock, the completely street legal M109R is just as fast as the Destroyer (the fastest version of the V-Rod) and is about 15K cheaper to boot. Drop that 15K into tuning it and it will demolish the Destroyer.
Plus if you really want the quarter mile times you just take a Busa or a Big Ninja to the track. And again, 15-17K cheaper.
Plus stock for stock a base model V-Rod has an MSRP of around 15K while the stock M109 has an MSRP of around 14K. So the M109R is about a grand cheaper, which you can use for comfort items, as well as it's faster/more powerful.
As for looks though, the V-Rod has it hands down! The shroud on that M109R is ugly!

And just my 2 cents worth, the XR1200 and the V-Rod series are the only HDs I would ever spend money on, but both would get serious consideration if I was looking for a power or performance cruiser.

They are actually closer than you think.

The M109 has a peak HP of 127 with the stock V-Rod at 123. The M109 does have more torque but the V-Rod is 75lbs lighter.

If you had to spend $15,000 to make up the HP and TQ differences, I hope it comes with a free bag of crack.