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not to enterrupt the debate , but my rides are getting better. I think what is really helping me is looking to where I want the bike to be after I make the turn. My throttle and clutch control is a lot smoother also. I have read about the counter steering technique.For you guys who are scheptical , I read that when you push on you right grip you lean right. Yes your front wheel turns left but only for a split second. It all has to do with the rake and trail and all that stuff that I don't fully understand yet.

But, the good news is that my rides are getting better and my comfidence is up. I just need to ride ride ride and read and take the safety course.

Thanks Everyone

Glad to hear your confidence is increasing! Had the M50 been available for sale when I was in the market for a new bike, I'd more than likely be riding one...the blacked-out version, of course! I have some experience with the engine (Dad's C50) but would love some seat time on the bike itself. It's one helluva good looking ride! Congrats!

Glad to hear it M50 - sorry we got off track on you for a little while.

No hard feelings Zootech - it was a good conversation.

For the record, all recoverable turns on bicycles with fork trail, motorized or otherwise, involve countersteering. At any speed. Period. You're not getting your contact patches out from under your center of gravity unless you do it.

And countersteering has much less to do with gyroscopic motion than it does with getting the contact patches out from under the center of gravity.

You can cause the bike to get a turning configuration by leaning, but guess what. Leaning your body causes the bike to lean the other way, which steers it that way, which then makes you steer it back under you, which means all you just did was countersteer by moving your body CG rather than putting a twist on the bars (the bars still twisted outside before they twisted inside).

Since the width of motorcycle tires is appreciable, there may be bizarre situations in which the dihedral angle between the front wheel and the rear during the steady-state portion of a highly leaned turn may need to be opposite that for a slower, less-leaned turn. But I doubt it. The impression that it is may be caused by the need to maintain a forward force on the inside handlebar (or, often, a backward force on the outside grip). I've tried to observe this reverse angle, but always come away convinced that it's really angled into the turn the normal way and my head angle and focus are distorting my view of it.

What can be happening is that the typical turn involves continuously increasing lean, which requres steering outside the stable curve for a given lean angle. At the apex the opposite will have to happen and you will have to steer inside the constant-lean curve to bring the bike more upright. And since nothing about bike stability involves constants, you will be wobbling about the stable lean angle, steering inside and outside of it, during the meat of the turn. This is actually the safe way to make turns. You start out on the wide side to give you the most visibility around the corner, and ease to the inside during the curve to increase the outside margin in case you have to bail for any reason. I.e., all curves should be taken at a decreasing radius, not simply the circular path of greatest radius (that's a racing move, not a safety move).

IMO.

cb360 wrote:No hard feelings Zootech - it was a good conversation.

None here either, Bro. A healthy debate now and then is a good thing...but sometimes semantics, context, or misunderstandings arise and become the primary focus. I'm glad when, in the end, we can still come out as friends.

Cheers to that Zootech

And as usual, Blair understands this stuff just a little better than I do. He's got to have some kind of math or engineering degree. Which is it Blair? No, really - I'd be interested to know.

cb360 wrote:Cheers to that Zootech

And as usual, Blair understands this stuff just a little better than I do. He's got to have some kind of math or engineering degree. Which is it Blair? No, really - I'd be interested to know.

I'm part Vulcan. (or , if you prefer)

m50 wrote:Yes your front wheel turns left but only for a split second.

not sure about that whole split second thing, when i take a long sweeping turn at speed, im counter steering the entire turn. you have to keep the counter steer effect going not just at the start of the turn.

i Really like the m50, when i was looking to buy a bike they were just barely announced, all the dealers i went to had no idea what bike i was talking about. one dealer said 'oh yea we had 5 of them last week they sold fast we dont know when well get them back in' a few days later i go back to the same dealer talk to the same salesguy he says 'never herd of the m50, its the new version of the marauder? nope we dont have that, suzuki canceld them'. i hate salesguys.

"not to enterrupt the debate , but my rides are getting better. I think what is really helping me is looking to where I want the bike to be after I make the turn. My throttle and clutch control is a lot smoother also."

Cool! Glad to hear you're 'feeling' your bike, and enjoying more control and confidence. That's been my buildup on the 919. Whenever I glance too long in the direction I'm not going the specter of bad tidings arises. It's good advice to always look at the end of the maneuver.

The serious tone of this discussion of countersteering is valid. You are ALWAYS countersteering a motorcycle at anything above a crawl.

If you don't have the emergency swerve down, you are a danger to yourself and any damned fool who would be your passenger. Precision steering in a curve is countersteering. How do you dial in your lean angles without being conscious of this?

Sorry zoo. You just stated a large number of factors that can increase the speed where countersteering comes into play, so I'll concede to your higher than walking speed, for your bike (limo-size compared to my 56 inch wheelbase, and most bikes).

Wasn't trying to be hostile or storm out, and I'm not offended. I didn't mean to offend you, either. So, I'm sorry.