back to the topic- you have little/no bike experience and you "think" you'll be fine on a bike with about 4 times the recomended horsepower.
do i go to hospitals and play doctor because i "think" i know how to perform surgery?
do i take up sky diving witout and instructor because i "think" i know how to pack the parachute?
hell no. i listen to people who may know what the "fudge" they are talking about.
obviosly you are smarter/know more about motorcycles than the people here. those stickys at the top of the forum are only for other people, not you, you are special. so go ahead and do what you want to do. btw, in MSF you never really leave 2nd gear, there are accually 6 gears and it can go a little faster if you use them i "think".
Question about 1000cc or very powerful bikes as starters
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BigChickenStrips
- Legendary 500
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- Location: Tenn.
Doesn't seem like you "think" before you post eitherHandsomeRyan wrote: back to the topic- you have little/no bike experience and you "think" you'll be fine on a bike with about 4 times the recomended horsepower.
do i go to hospitals and play doctor because i "think" i know how to perform surgery?
do i take up sky diving witout and instructor because i "think" i know how to pack the parachute?
hell no. i listen to people who may know what the "fudge" they are talking about.
obviosly you are smarter/know more about motorcycles than the people here. those stickys at the top of the forum are only for other people, not you, you are special. so go ahead and do what you want to do. btw, in MSF you never really leave 2nd gear, there are accually 6 gears and it can go a little faster if you use them i "think".
so in actuality what did you say..... not much.....
All guns and everything else aside the only other info really useful I saw after my last post was about the 0-60. 3.x and 5.x are a big difference yes. However both are fast and out perform most cars. The only main difference is the potential of the bike / accel.
Acceleration is just the easiest difference to quantify. How do you put a number on "twitchy"?
I'm not sure I buy the .357 comparison. It will cost you more, it may scare you more, but the .357 is just as safe as a .22... or, if you prefer, just as dangerous. Goof off with a .22 or a 38 special you can have just as bad a day as with the 44mag. From a safety and handling perspective you treat them exactly the same. You don't have to pull the trigger faster because it is a 44, or hold the gun differently if you load 38 specials in your .357. You don't squeeze the trigger half as hard because it is more powerful.
On the motorcycle side things aren't quite so simple. You must use different techniques when riding a higher performance bike. It takes more control precision/skill and you have less time. Bad combination for learning.
I wouldn't hesitate to give someone a powerful gun as a beginner. Oh, I might start them on a 22LR or even a pellet gun, but I've seen people get jumpy and flinching from the sound of the spring on a good pellet gun... having them fire a 9mm or 357 a few times to let them hear "loud" can clear that confusion up and make them a better marksman. I would hesitate to give a beginner a powerful motorcycle.
I'm not sure I buy the .357 comparison. It will cost you more, it may scare you more, but the .357 is just as safe as a .22... or, if you prefer, just as dangerous. Goof off with a .22 or a 38 special you can have just as bad a day as with the 44mag. From a safety and handling perspective you treat them exactly the same. You don't have to pull the trigger faster because it is a 44, or hold the gun differently if you load 38 specials in your .357. You don't squeeze the trigger half as hard because it is more powerful.
On the motorcycle side things aren't quite so simple. You must use different techniques when riding a higher performance bike. It takes more control precision/skill and you have less time. Bad combination for learning.
I wouldn't hesitate to give someone a powerful gun as a beginner. Oh, I might start them on a 22LR or even a pellet gun, but I've seen people get jumpy and flinching from the sound of the spring on a good pellet gun... having them fire a 9mm or 357 a few times to let them hear "loud" can clear that confusion up and make them a better marksman. I would hesitate to give a beginner a powerful motorcycle.
Ride it like you think owning it matters.
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camthepyro
- Legendary 1000
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Let me try to be as clear as possible.
250cc nighthawk is one bike, a GSX-R1000 is another bike
Everybody says they are night and day
Saying that, how can learning on a 250cc prepare you for the R1000?
If a 1000 is throttle sensitive and the 250 isn't how does that prepare you?
If the 1000 is twitchy and the 250 isnt' how does that prepare you?
Just because you master a 250 doesn't prepare you for a more powerful bike. You will just master the 250. Anytime you start on a new machine you will need to learn it. It's common sense.
250cc nighthawk is one bike, a GSX-R1000 is another bike
Everybody says they are night and day
Saying that, how can learning on a 250cc prepare you for the R1000?
If a 1000 is throttle sensitive and the 250 isn't how does that prepare you?
If the 1000 is twitchy and the 250 isnt' how does that prepare you?
Just because you master a 250 doesn't prepare you for a more powerful bike. You will just master the 250. Anytime you start on a new machine you will need to learn it. It's common sense.
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bok
- Site Supporter - Platinum
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- Location: Cowtown (Calgary Alberta)
any time you change machines you have to learn the new one. very true. but it's the transfer of skills and mitigation of danger that is usually missed in this argument. learning to ski on a double black diamond can be done, but it hurts a lot.
if you can do it well on a smaller CC bike you can transfer the skills
if you can't do it well on a small bike the minor problems can become major just due to the higher HP/stronger brakes etc.
buy what you want to buy, but you can't really convince people that you will be a superstar right out of the gate just because you "mastered" a 250 and didn't go flying off the bike at the MSF, anymore than we can convince you that a high powered sport bike is statistically not a good bike to choose as a first bike. you might prove the world wrong and that's great, but you could hurt yourself real bad easily.
if you can do it well on a smaller CC bike you can transfer the skills
if you can't do it well on a small bike the minor problems can become major just due to the higher HP/stronger brakes etc.
buy what you want to buy, but you can't really convince people that you will be a superstar right out of the gate just because you "mastered" a 250 and didn't go flying off the bike at the MSF, anymore than we can convince you that a high powered sport bike is statistically not a good bike to choose as a first bike. you might prove the world wrong and that's great, but you could hurt yourself real bad easily.
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Dichotomous
- Legendary 300
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as my instructor said "you are now fully capable and qualified to ride small engined motorcycles in a parking lot at low speeds"
the other difference bewteen that 250 and the zx6r is that the zx6r will wheely VERY easily if your hand gets a bit tired and you reposition or have an itch or so, not meaning to be throttle happy mind you, not doubting your restraint possibilities here. though it is possible to learn on one, and you COULD, its not the best idea. Honestly ask yourself why you like that bike, does it fit with your intended riding? where are you riding, when, are you riding to go somewhere, to save gas, to free yourself from the cage? Do you want to go on tours and ride longer distances to other states or go see things? Honestly ask yourself if your buddies have influenced you decision based on what they have or have said you need to be manly, I'm 24 too, so I know what its like to have friends on 600 supersports, just think about is all I say. Are you trying to express an image with your bike? Is it bad to try to express an image with a bike? NO, its right in my opinion, thats half of it or more for a lot of people, possibly even the majority. However, get into it a little slower, calm down man, this is a learning thing, not like in cars, a big or small or weak or powerfull car all basically seat the same, turn the same, you dont have to worry as much about stability and brakes and weighting and all. its not at all like comparing a honda civic to a dodge viper, even though they both handle well, and one is gobs faster than the other, neither one requires you to know the physics and dynamics of driving, you just turn the wheel and press the gas and go, and by pressing too hard on either brake you wont flip or go flying out of the car, you will on a supersport. Even my "friend" who wanted a gsxr and only so he could be faster than his turbo'd sports car got himself a gs500 to start with, if HE can get a resonable bike to start with then anyone can....
the other difference bewteen that 250 and the zx6r is that the zx6r will wheely VERY easily if your hand gets a bit tired and you reposition or have an itch or so, not meaning to be throttle happy mind you, not doubting your restraint possibilities here. though it is possible to learn on one, and you COULD, its not the best idea. Honestly ask yourself why you like that bike, does it fit with your intended riding? where are you riding, when, are you riding to go somewhere, to save gas, to free yourself from the cage? Do you want to go on tours and ride longer distances to other states or go see things? Honestly ask yourself if your buddies have influenced you decision based on what they have or have said you need to be manly, I'm 24 too, so I know what its like to have friends on 600 supersports, just think about is all I say. Are you trying to express an image with your bike? Is it bad to try to express an image with a bike? NO, its right in my opinion, thats half of it or more for a lot of people, possibly even the majority. However, get into it a little slower, calm down man, this is a learning thing, not like in cars, a big or small or weak or powerfull car all basically seat the same, turn the same, you dont have to worry as much about stability and brakes and weighting and all. its not at all like comparing a honda civic to a dodge viper, even though they both handle well, and one is gobs faster than the other, neither one requires you to know the physics and dynamics of driving, you just turn the wheel and press the gas and go, and by pressing too hard on either brake you wont flip or go flying out of the car, you will on a supersport. Even my "friend" who wanted a gsxr and only so he could be faster than his turbo'd sports car got himself a gs500 to start with, if HE can get a resonable bike to start with then anyone can....
[img]http://forum.svrider.com/photoalbum/albums/userpics/19909/bike%20girl%20bannar.JPG[/img]
Theres just something about a blue bike....
Throttle on man, Throttle on....
Theres just something about a blue bike....
Throttle on man, Throttle on....
Oh that's easy.
There are many skills to master. Most of those skills are just "riding a motorcycle"... How to negotiate curves, obstacles, and real-world road situations, how to handle traffic, how to negotiate a down-hill curve that needs braking, how to avoid people who turn left in front of you, and so on. A few skills are "riding a xxxCC motorcycle" or even "riding a model XYZ motorcycle". You learn those too.
When you start on a lower-power bike, you are spending less of your mental effort on "critical bike control" skills, which allows you to learn "riding a motorcycle" skills faster. Faster is better, 'cause you need those skills. Said another way... if you just hit the throttle 100%, you aren't going to have a bike in your lap... so you don't have to spend brain power on *not* hitting the throttle 100% when you should be worried about whether someone is going to turn in front of you.
Then, when you switch to a more powerful bike, you already know the "general motorcycle" stuff... Which frees up your brain and body to learn the "riding a xxxCC" and "riding a model XYZ" type skills.
I'll put it into a different context: learning to fly an airplane.
When you start out, an instructor dood is sitting to your right who can completely fly the plane. He has the skills and the controls. And what he does is gives you one part of the job of flying. The most basic part, handling the primary flight controls (ailerons, elevator, rudder)... he does everything else. Then, as you internalize that skill, he adds something else for you to do... throttle maybe... and something else... and something else... until you are flying the plane, running the radio, navigating, and he's just sitting there with his hands in his lap.
That very first lesson is *at least* as stressful as the last lesson where you are flying the plane completely on your own and he's just watching and making notes for an after-flight conversation. You are spending the same amount of brain power, your attention is just as absorbed, on every lesson... but on the last lesson you are doing a LOT more than you were on the first lesson. How? Because as you learn each skill it takes less and less brain power to perform.
If we had that situation, a copilot/instructor on board to offload part of the work of riding to as we learned... and to bail us out when we screwed up... I'd say go ahead and start on whatever bike you want. Since we don't, it makes sense to start on a bike that will take less of your attention, so you can spend that attention on not t-boning the "dog" on her cell-phone who just popped out of the parking lot in front of you.
There are many skills to master. Most of those skills are just "riding a motorcycle"... How to negotiate curves, obstacles, and real-world road situations, how to handle traffic, how to negotiate a down-hill curve that needs braking, how to avoid people who turn left in front of you, and so on. A few skills are "riding a xxxCC motorcycle" or even "riding a model XYZ motorcycle". You learn those too.
When you start on a lower-power bike, you are spending less of your mental effort on "critical bike control" skills, which allows you to learn "riding a motorcycle" skills faster. Faster is better, 'cause you need those skills. Said another way... if you just hit the throttle 100%, you aren't going to have a bike in your lap... so you don't have to spend brain power on *not* hitting the throttle 100% when you should be worried about whether someone is going to turn in front of you.
Then, when you switch to a more powerful bike, you already know the "general motorcycle" stuff... Which frees up your brain and body to learn the "riding a xxxCC" and "riding a model XYZ" type skills.
I'll put it into a different context: learning to fly an airplane.
When you start out, an instructor dood is sitting to your right who can completely fly the plane. He has the skills and the controls. And what he does is gives you one part of the job of flying. The most basic part, handling the primary flight controls (ailerons, elevator, rudder)... he does everything else. Then, as you internalize that skill, he adds something else for you to do... throttle maybe... and something else... and something else... until you are flying the plane, running the radio, navigating, and he's just sitting there with his hands in his lap.
That very first lesson is *at least* as stressful as the last lesson where you are flying the plane completely on your own and he's just watching and making notes for an after-flight conversation. You are spending the same amount of brain power, your attention is just as absorbed, on every lesson... but on the last lesson you are doing a LOT more than you were on the first lesson. How? Because as you learn each skill it takes less and less brain power to perform.
If we had that situation, a copilot/instructor on board to offload part of the work of riding to as we learned... and to bail us out when we screwed up... I'd say go ahead and start on whatever bike you want. Since we don't, it makes sense to start on a bike that will take less of your attention, so you can spend that attention on not t-boning the "dog" on her cell-phone who just popped out of the parking lot in front of you.
Ride it like you think owning it matters.
