Interesting interpretation on crimes in a war zone...

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sv-wolf
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#51 Unread post by sv-wolf »

kali wrote:Labor seems to have drifted pretty far right to me. How is it more Brits didn't switch to another party?
Cos, like the U.S., the UK is saddled with a two-party system. The choice is between Labour and Conservative. If you were a left-winger when the Labour party moved to the right you were effectively disenfranchised. There's no-one else to vote for.

Having said that, there is a third party here, The Liberal Democrats. But they haven't been in power sinced before the First World War when they were overtaken by the Labour Party. They have recently been trying to win over disenchanted left-wing Labour voters by claiming to be the new left but few people take that seriously. (In the UK, Liberals are not seen as left wing - just middle of the road.) They are just another version of the other two. In any case few people will vote for them because it is regarded as a 'wasted vote' - our first-past-the-post voting system means it would take a collossal shift in voting patterns to get them into power.

kali wrote:
Even some of us dumb yankees know London is refered to as 'The City' in the financial world.
:D

Err... well actually Kali, that's not quite correct. You are not the first 'dumb yankee' to be confused by it, because it is confusing.

As in other places, the original city of London, as it grew and spread, swallowed up hundreds of other nearby cities and towns and villages. This expanded, built-up area, is known adminsitratively as 'Greater London'.

What most people think of as London, though is the central area. (People who live in the outlying districts often do not regard themselves as Londoners at all.) This central area consists of three cities, each of which still retain their original identity. To the north-east of the Thames lies 'The City of London', to the north-west of the Thames is 'The 'City of Westminister' and, south of the Thames is 'The City of Southwark'.

'The City of London', the original Roman city, still retains its medieval boundaries and has its own local government structure and special privileges (The Queen has to ask permission from the Mayor of London to enter its boundaries). It covers a single square mile of land. It is known simply as, 'The City' or 'The Square Mile'. It is in 'The City' that all the big international banks, the big insurance companies and the financial markets are located. In fact, there isn't a lot else there. Almost no-one lives there.

So when people refer to 'The City', they are not referring to the modern city of 'London', the metropolitan area, but to the financial district and its institutions located within the boundaries of the historical 'City of London'.

I'm sure that's as clear as mud. :wink:
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#52 Unread post by Kal »

The City of London even has its own Police Force seperate to the Met, and very nice they are too. :laughing:

Shockingly it really wouldn't take that much to swing the Liberal Democrates into power. A few years John Cleese did some adverts for them the essence of which was if everyone who said they would vote Lib Dem did so then it would be the biggest landslide in British political history.

Anyways last election the Beeb went on one and did an investigation into just what it takes to vote a prty into power. It takes very, very little. There are only a few decisive constituencies, something like 90 out of the 600+, it is these constituencies that decide who will be in power.

These constituencies are usually white middle class and comparitively well off. Studies into proportional representation tend to show things would be very different, which is why Government (whichever party it is) has little interest in changing things.
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#53 Unread post by kali »

sv-wolf wrote:
kali wrote:Labor seems to have drifted pretty far right to me. How is it more Brits didn't switch to another party?
Cos, like the U.S., the UK is saddled with a two-party system. The choice is between Labour and Conservative. If you were a left-winger when the Labour party moved to the right you were effectively disenfranchised. There's no-one else to vote for.

Having said that, there is a third party here, The Liberal Democrats. But they haven't been in power since before the First World War when they were overtaken by the Labour Party. They have recently been trying to win over disenchanted left-wing Labor voters by claiming to be the new left but few people take that seriously. (In the UK, Liberals are not seen as left wing - just middle of the road.) They are just another version of the other two. In any case few people will vote for them because it is regarded as a 'wasted vote' - our first-past-the-post voting system means it would take a collossal shift in voting patterns to get them into power.

kali wrote:
Even some of us dumb Yankees know London is refereed to as 'The City' in the financial world.
:D

Err... well actually Kali, that's not quite correct. You are not the first 'dumb Yankee' to be confused by it, because it is confusing.

As in other places, the original city of London, as it grew and spread, swallowed up hundreds of other nearby cities and towns and villages. This expanded, built-up area, is known adminsitratively as 'Greater London'.

What most people think of as London, though is the central area. (People who live in the outlying districts often do not regard themselves as Londoners at all.) This central area consists of three cities, each of which still retain their original identity. To the north-east of the Thames lies 'The City of London', to the north-west of the Thames is 'The 'City of Westminister' and, south of the Thames is 'The City of Southwark'.

'The City of London', the original Roman city, still retains its medieval boundaries and has its own local government structure and special privileges (The Queen has to ask permission from the Mayor of London to enter its boundaries). It covers a single square mile of land. It is known simply as, 'The City' or 'The Square Mile'. It is in 'The City' that all the big international banks, the big insurance companies and the financial markets are located. In fact, there isn't a lot else there. Almost no-one lives there.

So when people refer to 'The City', they are not referring to the modern city of 'London', the metropolitan area, but to the financial district and its institutions located within the boundaries of the historical 'City of London'.

I'm sure that's as clear as mud. :wink:
While I knew it referred to the financial aspect of London, I didn't know this particular area was so well and anciently defined.

Now I do vaguely remember that there was a bombing in this area, don't remember if it was Muslim or IRA, that started/justified the governments massive public camera placement and citizen monitoring.

I hear the cameras even have speakers so nanny watchers can admonish you live.

It sounds like big money has bought the parties and media to turn your system into something effectively no different than ours.

I will spend some time today learning more about your parties.

One character I really enjoyed a while back was a war critic George Galloway. He made our senate politicians look like armatures in senate testimony. I'm sorry I missed a chance to see him speak in Boston. How is this guy?
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#54 Unread post by sv-wolf »

Hiya Kali

By all the available evidence, Galloway appears to be a crook and con man. However, his outspokenness and sheer chutzpah, unusual among our politicians, has won him a lot of grudging (and delighted) respect among the anti-war faction among others.

Someone over the pond clearly boobed by not doing their research into this guy. They failed to advise the senate committe what they would be in for if they attempted to arraign him. We all knew over here, of course. And we were gurgling in anticipation for weeks before the event. The entire nation, as far as I can tell, gathered round their television sets to watch the fun as he simply used the committe as a forum to attack the American Government over its war mongering. ROTFLMFAO :roll2:

On reflection, I agree with Kal about how easy it would be to elect the Lib Dems into power - if they got votes in the right places. That is what is so absurd about the first-past-the-post system. The Lib Dems have been getting very respectable voting percentages in recent elections, but it has never translated into many seats in Parliament. I guess it is similar in the U.S. It is the distribution of votes that elects a party to government here not the overall percentage.

As happens not infrequently, a party with a minority of votes may end up with a majority of seats in Parliament and therefore, according to the UK 'constitution,' forms the next government.

You probably know about the 'constitutional' issue here in the UK. England has not been sucessfully invaded or had its political institutions disrupted by external influence since the Norman Invasion of 1066. That means the English have a legal and constitutional system that is older than (and completely unlike) anything else in Europe. Everything here is based upon the ancient common law, precedent and traditional practice.

The reason we have so many bizzare and anomalous institutions is because we've never had anything like the French Revolution, so there has never been an opportunity or an incentive to tear up the system and start again on a rational basis. We just adapt what we already have to new circumstances. That is why we have medieval institutions mixed up with modern ones, eg. a hereditary King or Queen presiding, as head of state, over a modern 'democratic' system. And if we haven't got any suitable 'ancient' traditions to hand, we invent some. We're quite good at that.

The'constitution' is no different, it is just a huge pile of ancient practice and tradition. Nothing is written. Within this tradition, the 'Will of Parliament' is sovereign. Parliament can do anything it damn well likes and there is no legal power to stop it. A simple majority in parliament could change the constitution wholesale any time it wanted. That doesn't happen only because the weight of tradition hangs heavy on the mental processes of British politicians and the British populace. The state must adapt, to new circumstances, the theory goes, but the weight of tradition ensures that it will change only slowly and carefully. The main stabilising force in British law and governance is therefore historical inertia (not written documents or checks and balances).

The main counterbalance to the power system is a long history of rioting, political activism and a skeptical approach to political and legal authority among the general population. This might surprise you. We are a pretty surly lot. Yes, the British appear to be docile at present, but I suspect you will find that is skin deep.

(I get the impression that most Americans appear to be ignorant of their own grass roots political traditions, where the populace regularly confronted power on the streets and often with great heroism and self sacrifice right from the early settlement days up to the mid-20th century. After the 1940s, radical political opposition was effectively silenced and curtailed. Popular history, as far as my reading goes, seems to has been written out of the school history books in the US by the same Post World War II propaganda campaign I mentioned earlier. )

In the UK the relationship between Parliament and government have never been clearly defined and they change slightly as governments suceed one another. Over recent years the office of the Prime Minister has become increasingly dominant both over the government and over Parliament, and this, according to many, is leading to a constitutional crisis.

As you probably know, there is no clear 'separation of powers' here, so the members of the government also have seats in Parliament. Strictly speaking, in the British system we do not elect a government. We elect individual politicians to parliament. The party which has the majority of politicians elected in parliament is, by tradition and practice, invited by the Queen to form a government. That party's leader becomes Prime Minister (usually) and he selects his major ministers, who then form 'The Cabinet,' which is the core of the UK Government.

From an establishment point of view, this all works pretty well. And, relatively speaking, it has some positive consequences. For instance, unlike most western nations who have a Bill of Rights we have none. Americans often think this is a bit scary and regard their system as superior, offering more protection for the individual. That's debatable, however. It is actually the very lack of a Bill of Rights which secures individual freedom in British society. Almost everwhere a Bill of Rights exists, the principle is 'everthing is forbidden unless it is specifically included in the Bill.' Under the British system, everything is permitted unless it is specifically forbidden by law'. And that right to do anything you like so long as it is not illegal is maintained by the 'common law,' the same ancient, weighty pile of tradition I was speaking about earlier. The problem with a Bill of Rights, so the argument goes, is that it cannot codify everything that a citizen might want to do even though it might not be specifically outlawed by statute. A Bill of Rights is therefore likely to limit rather than permit individual freedoms.

In practice, looking at it from a dissenting perspective, it probably doesn't matter a damn. I don't see any particular advantage any way. Whatever way you have of codifing power relations, the result is the same. The whole legal and constitutional system as well as the doctrinal system changes and develops according to the needs of Capital, and the interests of its owners, not the needs of the population at large. That's as true here in the UK as it is in the US or anywhere else.

I must be nuts spending New Years Day writing all this stuff. But there you go. I must be filling an evolutionary niche somewhere. :lol:

I've been invited over to some friends to celebrate New Year, sitting round their log fire and eating mince pies, scones and damson jam. yummie! The British Constitution will look after itself. Gotta go!
Last edited by sv-wolf on Sun Dec 31, 2006 5:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#55 Unread post by blues2cruise »

sv-wolf wrote:
Riding on the London Underground you can hear more languages being spoken than anywhere else on the planet.
Wait until you ride a bus here. There are so many immigrants it's impossible to keep up with all the languages you hear on public transit....or in the parks...or in the shops.
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#56 Unread post by sv-wolf »

blues2cruise wrote:
sv-wolf wrote:
Riding on the London Underground you can hear more languages being spoken than anywhere else on the planet.
Wait until you ride a bus here. There are so many immigrants it's impossible to keep up with all the languages you hear on public transit....or in the parks...or in the shops.
That's interesting, blues

I knew you had a large number of ethnically defined groups in Canada but always imagined there was less of a general mix. You'd be very much at home over here then. :D
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#57 Unread post by blues2cruise »

sv-wolf wrote:
blues2cruise wrote:
sv-wolf wrote:
Riding on the London Underground you can hear more languages being spoken than anywhere else on the planet.
Wait until you ride a bus here. There are so many immigrants it's impossible to keep up with all the languages you hear on public transit....or in the parks...or in the shops.
That's interesting, blues

I knew you had a large number of ethnically defined groups in Canada but always imagined there was less of a general mix. You'd be very much at home over here then. :D
Well, when the pubs and restaurants finally go non smoking I will start saving up for a trip. I was in London for 2 days way back in 1974. I then spent a week in Scotland and a couple of weeks in Ireland. (I loved Scotland)
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#58 Unread post by qwerty »

I can't believe I read this entire stupid thread. I think I need to shovel out the office. Please excuse me while I hunt a suitable manure relocation device.
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#59 Unread post by Kal »

That was a well thought out, rational and original response. Thanks for taking the time to post it. :P
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#60 Unread post by sv-wolf »

qwerty wrote:I can't believe I read this entire stupid thread. I think I need to shovel out the office. Please excuse me while I hunt a suitable manure relocation device.
More fool you qwerty for spending your valuable time reading something you thought was a load of dodo just so you could show us how superior your views were. :laughing: :laughing:
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