Total Motorcycle Community Forums

Lion_Lady wrote:Okay. So then, what I'm getting is that you're practicing stuff that you've worked out on your own, with no professional "hands on with feedback" guidance to make sure you're using proper technique.

Only a small minority of riders on the road today have taken the MSF course. You seem to write them off if they haven't taken your course. I'm talking about things that should apply to everyone who rides regardless of whether they have taken your course.

I believe it was Cal Ripken Sr who said, "Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent. Perfect practice makes perfect."

I've seen motorcycle opinion makers use this argument before. The practical effect is to discourage people from practicing. The underlying logic is that people shouldn't do drills and exercises unless they have "perfect" technique which they can ONLY get from an MSF instructor during a weekend seminar. You could also say it not okay to ride in traffic with less than "perfect" technique but this logic is reserved for PLP.

Given that no recognized body has recently completed (or at least published) any study regarding the success rate of motorcycle basic training, I'd say your argument is in the weeds.

I provided evidence of my claim that current motorcycle training courses have little effect on crash involvement. The evidence is recent, you have decided it is not sufficient to persuade you. Others may be persuaded.

You said you want to discuss practice. But in order to have a meaningful discussion, we've got to begin from a common reference point. If you haven't taken the BRC, you should consider it anyhow. The techniques taught are still valid and correct, even if the course as a whole lacks sufficient (to your mind) stress on practicing.

The problem is that you can't discuss practice with anyone who has not taken the course you advocate. I don't have that limitation. The "common reference point" is practice itself. If riders aren't practicing they often dispute the necessity of practice instead of discussing it.

"Doesn't make a significant difference in safety," okay, so what?

People who take the MSF course should be advised about this.

Make of what you learn, what you will. No knowledge is worthless and true lifelong learners are always looking for more knowledge.

Knowledge is of limited value without motor/balance skills which are only developed with ongoing drills and exercises.

So, you just keep on riding your figure 8s and keep on preaching your doctrine and we'll all just move on.

If you aren't interested in this discussion all you need to do is ignore it.

There are two kinds of "knowledge" in riding. There is the kind your thinking, conscious mind absorbs, that comes from books and lectures and discussions. The other kind is what the human motor/balance system learns and that only comes from direct experience of actually doing something over and over and over.

The courses focus on what the thinking mind can learn because a few days on the range represents very little motor/balance conditioning. To have the best chance of overcoming panic reactions in motorcycle emergencies the motor/balance system needs a phenominal amount of conditioning. Some of that may come, very slowly, on the road, but there will be gaps and inconsistancies. My experience is that the pure motor/balance skills needed for a meaningful safety margin are created perhaps 10 times faster in PLP.

beginner,

You need to leave the MSF out of the discussion if you wish to continue it. You make yourself less credible by making inferences on something you have no experience with!

As well, I would venture to say that many of us who ride our bike in REAL situations EVERY DAY they can, have more practical and useful skill and knowledge of riding in everyday situations than your PLP could ever teach. To infer that daily riding can not teach basic emergency skills is a fallacy. I've only ridden consistently for 1 riding season and I can't even COUNT the number of emergency braking or swerving maneuvers I've HAD to accomplish just to make it to and from work safley. And where did I LEARN those skills? The MSF... but you haven't taken the course, so you wouldn't be aware of the taught skill.

You continue to ignore the FACT that many of us experienced being told and taught that practice beyond the basic training is required to be a good rider.

I beg of you, let the topic die and go take the MSF. I'm sure you will feel different after you've actually experienced it. You will also be a better rider!

beginner wrote:
The courses focus on what the thinking mind can learn because a few days on the range represents very little motor/balance conditioning. To have the best chance of overcoming panic reactions in motorcycle emergencies the motor/balance system needs a phenominal amount of conditioning. Some of that may come, very slowly, on the road, but there will be gaps and inconsistancies. My experience is that the pure motor/balance skills needed for a meaningful safety margin are created perhaps 10 times faster in PLP.

So, are you saying beginner, that the MSF offers no value to a beginning rider?

How can you be sure you are practicing the correct skills, since you have ZERO base by which you can judge your skill?

beginner wrote:

ofblong wrote:Even if its once a month practice thats better than no practice.

If there is enough practice in the beginning to have a solid baseline the rider can assess how much ongoing practice is enough. Once a month won't preserve skills in any activity where motor/balance skills are the heart of the matter. In golf, lack of practice has no public health consequences. Lack of motorcycle practice is a life or death issue.

JC Viper wrote:I went to a driving school up the block.
When I got my first bike a couple of months after getting my license I had no worries about riding it home.

What did he have to say about ongoing drills and exercises? Did he give you any to do after the instruction?

LOL man you are wwwaayyyy off base. There is a HHHHUUUGGGGEEEE difference between practicing golf for a job and practicing something you do everyday already. Once a month is MORE than enough practice for riding a motorcycle when you ride EVERY DAY THAT YOU HUMANLY CAN. That in itself is practice considering the number of "obsticles" people come upon when riding every day. Once a month WILL perserve skills for someone who has already learned them. Based on your responses you seem to NOT be able to handle the fact that all of us basically have stated your wrong in your thinking about the MSF course. Some people need to practice more/less than others but either way you dont need to practice every day.

MrShake wrote:So, are you saying beginner, that the MSF offers no value to a beginning rider?

I am saying courses have value if they are followed by a lot of practice. I am saying without the practice there is the risk that the course gives a false sense of security. In the mean time I'm saying, regardless of taking a course, practice is essential. I'm not talking about a little bit of practice. I'm talking about a ridiculous amount of practice.

How can you be sure you are practicing the correct skills, since you have ZERO base by which you can judge your skill?

This was covered in a post above. Your implication here is that it's okay to ride in traffic with less than perfect technique but not okay to practice with less than perfect technique. Also your implication is it's okay to ride in traffic without taking a course but not okay to practice without taking a course. Practice is beneficial regardless of whether someone has taken a course. In fact, practice is even beneficial with less than perfect technique.

ofblong wrote:There is a HHHHUUUGGGGEEEE difference between practicing golf for a job and practicing something you do everyday already.

The difference is you aren't likely to get hit by an SUV on the golf course.

Once a month is MORE than enough practice for riding a motorcycle when you ride EVERY DAY THAT YOU HUMANLY CAN. That in itself is practice considering the number of "obsticles" people come upon when riding every day. Once a month WILL perserve skills for someone who has already learned them.

The overwhelming majority of riders say that too, that riding around is practice. What responsible authority on safety promotes that? What responsible authority recommends ongoing drills and exercises. I'm not aware of any, zip, nada, nothing.

Some people need to practice more/less than others but either way you dont need to practice every day.

As a practical matter the majority view is no practice is necessary because riding around is practice. The amount of practice going on perfectly reflects that view.

I don't find your studies convincing for a few reasons. The first doesn't have any data to back it up. If you read the constraints of the second it's evident that it's a knee jerk reaction to a legislative inquiry and the study can't control enough variables for a true meaningful outcome. Not only are there too many holes, it's politicized with the current trend to demand more attitudinal dynamics in driver training courses. One of the greatest criticisms of any driver training program is that people won't use what they are taught b/c it's either too difficult, or not as much fun. For instance, why doesn't everyone drive the speed limit, why do people race each other on the street, why will most people pass up a parallel parking spot for a pull in spot? You can spend 40 hours a week in a parking lot, and damned near perfect every skill but still decide to ride like an idiot on the street. You are a perfect example of the opposite extreme. You won't even go out on the street.


Since you've obviously never taken the MSF, been given the class close up, or read the book I don't see how you can comment on it.

However, here's an excerpt from the BRC handbook doing pretty much what you're asking it to do. It's been in there for years and links to the MSF website which can stay current with information and exercises.



After every class an instructor tells students that they need to practice the skills the learned over the weekend on their own until they can come out cold and do them effortlessly. Then they are advised to start on small backroads and slowly work to bigger streets.

If you look at the MSF riding library you'll find a guide to self practice on basic techniques. From there you are encouraged to take an ERC, then move onto other classes like an ARC, Track day, Stayin Safe, police manuevering course etc depending on your style of riding. Every student is encouraged to do just that as they develop as motorcyclists. In every BRC it is stressed in the booklet, by the curriculum and by the instructor that this is only a first step. It's a basic rider course after all.

I've taken the BRC, ERC, Advanced Riding Clinc I&II, Military Sportbike Course, Stayin Safe road tour, Kevin Scwantz Super Bike School, Keith Code Superbike school, Cornerspeed I and II, Cornerspin, Illinois Police Riding School, STEPS beginner and advanced sidecar schools, not to mention various dirtbike, and trials courses. I have and read numerous books on motorcycle riding and have just over 250,000 miles of accident free riding. I am a lifelong learner and I still credit the BRC with keeping me alive.

The MSF is not a fast track to the M endorsement. In most areas it takes months to get into a class and not everyone passes. In Alabama you only have to take a written test and the longest it takes to get a license in any state is one month between learners and license. In some states you don't even need a license, you can ride restriction free on a learners. The M endorsement is only a carrot to get students into the classes. While I don't think the BRC should give a license, it teaches more skills and has a significantly more challenging test than the state licensing system.

Furthermore while the MSF holds a large market share, it's far from the only game in town. In my area alone there are three other programs picking up the slack from the MSF courses.

As far as practice goes. I have 94 different exercises that I run through. It covers all my styles of riding (dirt, trials, cruising, sportbike and sidecar). There is no way I can practice them all daily let alone weekly. However, most of the skills are reinforced by everyday riding and the true important ones such as swerving and braking I practice on every ride. It's very simple to do.

Swerve-
Pick an object on the road at various speeds, swerve around it. You can do this for the entire ride if you'd like. It involves various speeds, road conditions, and objects. In my opinion as both a rider and an instructor, it's better practice than in a parking lot.

Quick Stops (btw, if you're panicking on your motorcycle, you're already in trouble).
On an open stretch of road with no traffic behind you and no oncoming intersections, do a quick stop. You can do it from 15-70 mph. While you're at it, throw in an evade, or a slow then evade to further mix it up.

My motorcycle group has a big practice once a month. It's not the only time we practice as individuals but it allows us to think up new things to challenge each other, or attempt to hone our skills to best each other at set exercises.

Personally I find practice to be wonderful, but I see many people who, like lionlady suggests, practice wrong and even dangerous techniques. You should seriously consider instruction to ensure that you aren't teaching yourself things that will get you killed later on.

beginner wrote:

MrShake wrote:So, are you saying beginner, that the MSF offers no value to a beginning rider?

I am saying courses have value if they are followed by a lot of practice. I am saying without the practice there is the risk that the course gives a false sense of security. In the mean time I'm saying, regardless of taking a course, practice is essential. I'm not talking about a little bit of practice. I'm talking about a ridiculous amount of practice.

This is the problem here... you are participating in a ridiculous amount of practice. Either you've yet to procure the confidence you need to ride, your you just REALLY enjoy running drills. YOUR enjoyment or perspective does not fact make. I can not agree that the average rider needs DAILY drills to be a competent or safe rider. I can not agree that ridiculous amounts of practice are required.

beginner wrote:

How can you be sure you are practicing the correct skills, since you have ZERO base by which you can judge your skill?

This was covered in a post above. Your implication here is that it's okay to ride in traffic with less than perfect technique but not okay to practice with less than perfect technique. Also your implication is it's okay to ride in traffic without taking a course but not okay to practice without taking a course. Practice is beneficial regardless of whether someone has taken a course. In fact, practice is even beneficial with less than perfect technique.

NO ONE has perfect technique. We are, by our nature as humans, imperfect. You completely miss the point here. You have no basis to determine weither or not you are practicing with correct technique. Weither or not that technique is perfect or imperfect, you were not taught the basics before you started.
I also never implied or stated that it was ok to ride in traffic without a course. I recommend EVERYONE take the MSF or equivalent course before trying to ride in a real-world situation. Those courses give you the foundation to build on so that you can become a safe and competent rider!

Practice is fundamental in becoming better, but practice alone is not beneficial unless you are practicing the correct things, the right way. We have no information available to us as to where you learned what you practice. As far as we know, you may not be practicing counter-steering. You may not be practicing proper use of the front brake (as it provides 70%+ of your braking power). You may not be practicing looking during turns. You may not have practiced clutch control. Any one of those things, if overlooked could cause you to be an unsafe rider. And we have NO IDEA if your practicing those things, because you have not taken the class that provides the foundation for learning.

These are the facts:
1. The MSF provides foundational information and teaches basic skills.
2. The MSF encourages, through literature and instructors, all students to practice after the course.
3. The MSF is recommended to everyone who comes to this site asking for advice.

Give up.

This guy has gone on this same rant on just about every motorcycle forum he can find on the internet.

There's no reasoning with him, and everything you say will be wrong.

Save yourselves the frustration, unless of course, you're enjoying the exchange...

storysunfolding wrote:As far as practice goes. I have 94 different exercises that I run through. It covers all my styles of riding (dirt, trials, cruising, sportbike and sidecar). There is no way I can practice them all daily let alone weekly. However, most of the skills are reinforced by everyday riding and the true important ones such as swerving and braking I practice on every ride. It's very simple to do.

Swerve-Pick an object on the road at various speeds, swerve around it. You can do this for the entire ride if you'd like. It involves various speeds, road conditions, and objects. In my opinion as both a rider and an instructor, it's better practice than in a parking lot.

Quick Stops (btw, if you're panicking on your motorcycle, you're already in trouble).
On an open stretch of road with no traffic behind you and no oncoming intersections, do a quick stop. You can do it from 15-70 mph. While you're at it, throw in an evade, or a slow then evade to further mix it up.

My motorcycle group has a big practice once a month. It's not the only time we practice as individuals but it allows us to think up new things to challenge each other, or attempt to hone our skills to best each other at set exercises.

Personally I find practice to be wonderful, but I see many people who, like lionlady suggests, practice wrong and even dangerous techniques. You should seriously consider instruction to ensure that you aren't teaching yourself things that will get you killed later on.

What percent of your riding time might be on drills and exercises? My favorite exercise is 18by36 foot figure 8s (4 parking spaces). Do you do that one? Do you have a couple of favorite exercises? I wish I had a practice group. Are there any riders in the group who have stand out maneuvers? If so could you describe a couple of them.