My Thoughts on Rider Education (long)

[tymanthius]

Having a mentor would not replace parking lot practice.

But the two compliment each other nicely. The mentor is much more likely to see the little things you are missing. Even if you watch video's of yourself, you don't have the years of exp. that a good mentor is likely to.

Mentor implies free lessons. Good luck. Just go practice. If somebody joins you in that you'll be able to watch each other. You don't want somebody for a mentor who doesn't practice.

Ok, I'm not a bike guru. I'm not even qualified to be a novice yet. But, I am very exp. at horse riding/training. I can tell you that two novices trying to teach other rarely achieve much.

My 10 year old regularly out rides (on horses) adults that have been riding longer than she has been alive. This is because she benefits from riding with other GOOD riders, not other novices.

I have seen some self trained naturals. My mother is one such. But that is rare.

I have NEVER seen a bunch of novices get very far with out consulting with good experienced people who then mentored them.

You NEED the experienced eye to catch the subtle things that you miss.

Ever notice that a pro, whether it's horse riding, bicycling, motorcycling, cooking, flying, whatever, makes it look easy? It's b/c he's doing a million little things that the novice can't even see yet.

I am not a good trainer, for horse riders, myself. I can often see that they are doing it wrong, but then I have to get up, repeat the process, and THEN I can tell them how to do it right. Good mentors/trainers can see it, then explain it.

But even with my more limited skill set, I'm a better mentor than just someone who rides a horse, but doesn't know what he's doing. This same thing applies to motorcycles. Because I grew with horse trainers I learned how to watch for those little things. I can usually see them, but I often have to ask 'what exactly is that little thing s/he's doing right here?'. Most people can't even see those little things b/c they've never been taught to look for them.

In short, just finding someone else to ride with is not at all like finding a mentor* to ride with, be it PLP or road riding.



*mentor = good, experienced rider who can explain what s/he sees you missing or doing wrong.

[beginner]

I can tell you that two novices trying to teach other rarely achieve much.

I said they can watch each other, I did not say teach each other, just go practice.

*mentor = good, experienced rider who can explain what s/he sees you missing or doing wrong.

You'll learn things watching other people practice. What comes out of their mouths may or may not be useful. Just go practice and if nobody joins in you didn't want them for a mentor anyway.

[tymanthius]

You'll learn things watching other people practice. What comes out of their mouths may or may not be useful. Just go practice and if nobody joins in you didn't want them for a mentor anyway.

You're absolutely right. And if they are doing it in a 'wrong' way, you'll learn the wrong way.

Sitting in a parking lot watching other ppl make mistakes w/o someone to help you at least ID the mistakes is a recipe for disaster.

BUT, if you are watching someone who does it 'right', you will pick up some things.

But the point you missed is that most people can't even really see what is in front of them. They miss little details, like how much extra throttle in the turn, when the brake or clutch was covered, using the front brake instead of the rear, or vice versa.

You need the little details your eye missed to be explained to you, until you learn enough so that your eye starts catching the details and you start going 'oh, I see you did A B C D' and that's how you got the result.

[beginner]

You'll learn things watching other people practice. What comes out of their mouths may or may not be useful. Just go practice and if nobody joins in you didn't want them for a mentor anyway.

You're absolutely right. And if they are doing it in a 'wrong' way, you'll learn the wrong way.

Sitting in a parking lot watching other ppl make mistakes w/o someone to help you at least ID the mistakes is a recipe for disaster.

BUT, if you are watching someone who does it 'right', you will pick up some things.

But the point you missed is that most people can't even really see what is in front of them. They miss little details, like how much extra throttle in the turn, when the brake or clutch was covered, using the front brake instead of the rear, or vice versa.

You need the little details your eye missed to be explained to you, until you learn enough so that your eye starts catching the details and you start going 'oh, I see you did A B C D' and that's how you got the result.

People are not so dumb as you claim, once they start thinking for themselves. Don't expect some so-called expert to follow you around. First of all a motorcycle expert is somebody who is so good they don't need to practice any more. If you don't believe me just ask one. When was the last time you saw a motorcycle expert practicing? And how do you know when you are an expert? When you don't practice any more.

I've noticed my eye for riding technique follows along roughly with my own skills. The better I get at some part of riding the better I can see it in someone elses riding.

There are two kinds of riders, the ones who practice, and the ones who don't. Just go practice and ignore the people who will try to talk you out of it.

[tymanthius]

First of all a motorcycle expert is somebody who is so good they don't need to practice any more.

I call BS. Both of my parents are expert horse riders, and they both practice regularly.

And when they have not been able to practice for whatever reason, you can tell when they first get back on that they are out of practice, at least if you know what to watch for.

I've been nearly jaw droppingly astounded that some expert riders did so badly, and had novices sitting next me go 'Wow, that was awesome'. So I KNOW that the novice can't see the details.

As to ppl being dumb - well, I'm not saying that. Rather I am saying they are ignorant, and untrained. That is a fixable condition, but you have to be trained (yes, self training can work, but it is usually much slower).

Go look into persons that created thier own martial arts. Took them a lifetime to create & master it. But they can usually teach it to a very high level in much less time. Self teaching is slower. Ask Thomas Edison, or Albert Einstein.



I'm curious - who here has tried to talk anyone out of practice? Please link to the post, and tell me where to look. I doubt it's happened, but I don't read every post.

[Brackstone]

I would mentor for free, or at least for meals.

I wouldn't consider mentoring anyone that didn't take an MSF course though because I wouldn't' want to instruct someone on motorcycling from the ground up. Also this is about getting out there and applying your skills.

But I think just having someone around to ride with, knowing that if anything DID go wrong you weren't alone. Also when the end of the day came they would be able to give you some pointers and tell you where your weaknesses or strengths are.

I'm not talking about a parking lot mentor, I'm talking about riding buddies. If someone else wants to setup all the obstacles and have me watch them do it well then That's why I compare it to Big Brother Big Sister.

If we could learn everything from books and videos then we wouldn't have teachers and professors. We would just have pre-recorded video sessions you watch then computers to grade our homework.

You can't suggest that the majority of people can learn on their own without insisting that my previous statement is true.

[tymanthius]

If we could learn everything from books and videos then we wouldn't have teachers and professors. We would just have pre-recorded video sessions you watch then computers to grade our homework.

You can't suggest that the majority of people can learn on their own without insisting that my previous statement is true.

+1

[beginner]

I would mentor for free, or at least for meals.

I wouldn't consider mentoring anyone that didn't take an MSF course though because I wouldn't' want to instruct someone on motorcycling from the ground up. Also this is about getting out there and applying your skills.

But I think just having someone around to ride with, knowing that if anything DID go wrong you weren't alone. Also when the end of the day came they would be able to give you some pointers and tell you where your weaknesses or strengths are.

I'm not talking about a parking lot mentor, I'm talking about riding buddies. If someone else wants to setup all the obstacles and have me watch them do it well then That's why I compare it to Big Brother Big Sister.

If we could learn everything from books and videos then we wouldn't have teachers and professors. We would just have pre-recorded video sessions you watch then computers to grade our homework.

You can't suggest that the majority of people can learn on their own without insisting that my previous statement is true.

Read a book, take a course, watch a video, and when you're done you have some knowledge but the same amount of skill as before. If you don't practice you wouldn't be a good mentor.

[Lion_Lady]

who would be happy to shadow/mentor a new rider, if only asked.

Newbies aren't likely to throw themselves at an experienced rider. Who'd want to ride slow and boring rides with me?? And, um, what if the experienced rider is not such a safe rider, and how will I know? So, yeah, it would be great to establish a site where willing mentors and interested newbs could meet up.

I'd do it in a heartbeat. We'd start with some PLP to get a feel for each other's skills, talk about goals, and then we could discuss where to ride.

P

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Remember this is a two way relationship you're talking about. A mentor should be patient and willing to coach. A mentee (sounds like a pod of manatees)...a Learner should be willing to listen, willing to change, open to instruction and be able to be wrong without becoming entrenched in their errors.