Harley Davidson Financial Woes

[Gummiente]

It is safe to say that there would be no way that the public would support any kind of bailout money for HD(or any motorcycle company) for that matter. Afterall in the public's eyes, motorcyclists are third class citizens; one step above a convicted criminal.

Agreed. With the domestic automakers now asking for billions more money than what was initially offered to them, Joe Q Public will be in no mood to have his tax dollars go towards saving the two-wheeled industry.

[Gummiente]

and the H-Ds tend to have comparatively few to no plastic parts and higher quality detailing on the metal parts.

On the Sportster and Dyna lineups, yes. But I would hate to see how much my Road Glide - already a heavy bike - would weigh if it had a metal fairing, dash, sidecovers, signal lights and saddlebags.

The use of steel over plastic is more for aesthetic reasons than anything, IMO. Plastic is much easier to make parts out of and cheaper to manufacture than steel, which is why some bikes might have a small price advantage over others.

[RhadamYgg]

HD 10K Statement

I worked at a publicly held company that screwed up and stopped sending their 10K statements. Very shortly thereafter they stopped paying the employees (illegal in NJ and California - where they had employees).

Looks like they will be reducing overall operations and consolidating as much as they can to weather the economic storm.

They will be reducing their workforce by 1100 people. They are looking at a further 10% reduction of the market they sold last year - which was already a reduced market compared to previous years.

RhadamYgg

Your company that didn't file their 10-K statement was likely planning on not paying the employees before they decided not to submit their filing. When a company stops sending their filings to the SEC, it's typically a bad sign for the company (either they don't have the money to get their financials audited, their financials are not organized for an efficient audit, they know they're going down the toilet, etc.) and they get delisted from the stock exchange. It doesn't necessarily lead to the company refusing to pay their employees.

HD reducing the workforce is typical to the times. A lot of companies are retrenching and consolidating operations to increase efficiencies. The market for luxury products is reduced and probably will continue to be for the next year or two.

Yeah, HD can't be too bad off - they are still making their filings.

The company I worked for - they were such bastards about it. They screwed up their 10K and made it sound like an accident - and gave excuses to NASDAQ. Then, they had an all-hands meeting and told everyone how they were in difficulties but not to worry.

And then they stopped paying us. They paid us sometimes and then they furloughed a bunch of people. When the laid us off - they didn't pay vacation due - I ended up getting that - years later.

RhadamYgg

[RhadamYgg]

Well, they have been positioning their bikes as fuel efficient - during the high-gas price period of a little while ago. The problem is that their prices on most of their bikes would take a long time to make up in fuel savings - even with the high gas prices we were having.

Where do their prices come from? Do they just make a lot more money per bike than the foreign counterparts or does it really cost that much more to make them?

RhadamYgg

Not that it necessarily justifies the cost, but have you compared an H-D to a similar Yamaha or Honda? The H-Ds really aren't significantly more expensive at MSRP.. and the H-Ds tend to have comparatively few to no plastic parts and higher quality detailing on the metal parts.

I don't know.... When I compared bikes online I looked at the VRSC V-ROD and compared it to the B-King.

List Price
V-ROD - 14,999 (starting)
Night-ROD - 16,699
V-ROD Muscle - 17,199
B-King - 12,899 - 13,499

To me, in comparing the bikes, I don't have any question that the B-King outclasses the V-ROD. I still like the V-ROD, but even used ones go for far more than I paid for my B-King. And they get about the same MPG.

In my opinion, the B-King competes with all of those V-RODS.

Now, of course, these bikes might not be directly comparable - I might be making an invalid comparison. They were for my purposes - enough so that I didn't even bother to go to an HD dealer to check out the V-ROD.

Honda VTX1300C - $9899
HD - 1200 Custom - $9999
Suzuki - M90 - $10,599 (this is a slighly larger bike, though)
Yamaha - V Star 1300 - $10,290
This is pretty close. Probably a wash, unless you really liked one manufacturer over another. I'd probably go with the HD, in this case if that was what I was in to.

Someone listed the prices for the full-dress tourers. I think everyone charges less than Honda because they are the declared 'winner' for this group. Although, of course, since I like strange looking bikes, I'd probably get the Vision with the Trunk even though I think the Honda is probably the better bike.

RhadamYgg

[Gummiente]

Someone listed the prices for the full-dress tourers. I think everyone charges less than Honda because they are the declared 'winner' for this group.

So... following this logic, you assume that the most expensive bike is the "winner"? I think there are many BMW owners out there who are laughing right now.

[ceemes]

Keeping in mind that motorcycles in general are viewed as "luxury" items, it won't be just HD that will feel the effects of reduced sales in the coming months.

That is basically only true in Canada and the US. In much of South East Asia and parts of Europe, motorcycles are considered to be a form of cheap basic transportation, especially in the 125 to 250 CC classes. There brands like Honda have a firm foothold and HD cannot compete, they just don't have the product to do so.

[RhadamYgg]

Where do their prices come from? Do they just make a lot more money per bike than the foreign counterparts or does it really cost that much more to make them?

Things must be different up here in Canada, because the pricing of Harleys is very similar to equivalent bikes on the market. Let's take the touring Electra Glide, for example...

2009 Electra Glide Classic: $23,619 CDN
2009 BMW K1200LT: $24,750 CDN
2009 Honda Gold Wing GL1800AL: $29,399 CDN
2009 Yamaha Royal Star Venture S: $23,799 CDN
2009 Victory Vision Street: $24,194 CDN

What are the MSRP's for these bikes in the area where you're living?

Well, I don't know my models well, but here is what I can see:
2009 Honda Gold Wing - Starting at $20,999
2009 HD Electra Glide Classic - $18,999
BMW K1200LT - $21,520
Yamaha Royal Star Venture (not S) $18,190
Victory Vision Street - $18,999

But, I've seen Gold Wings (New) for as much as $29K.

So, I'd say your right - in terms of price in this segment - HD is fairly competitive. But then again, I'd say they have to be competitive on price given Honda's domination of the segment.

Or, I could b wrong about HD. It just seemed that I couldn't see anything under 10K whenever I checked their website out (they do have some new bikes under 10K now).

And I knew 10K was out of my range.

RhadamYgg

[RhadamYgg]

I think two of the reason Harley is getting hit harder than the other niche bike manufacturer that you mention are:
1. They expanded in anticipation of more growth when the market actually started to shrink.
2. The majority of their sales are in the US where the economy has been hit the hardest.

That Harley will be hit hard as the global economy continues to sputter, I have no doubt. However, I don't think it will be quite as severe as a lot of people are predicting (really, you should see some of the gleeful comments about their hopeful demise on other motorcycle forums I frequent). But they will not be the only motorcycle manufacturer that will be facing and executing difficult decisions. Keeping in mind that motorcycles in general are viewed as "luxury" items, it won't be just HD that will feel the effects of reduced sales in the coming months.

EDIT: Oh, and if they DO go under it won't really matter to me... I've already got mine.

Interestingly enough... HD and all the others mentioned earlier - might be headed toward a round of mergers.

Honda and BMW - I can't even imagine stopping motorcycle production... But they could go a few years without innovating new models, and running at reduced production numbers.

The problem with mergers though - is what would say Honda do if they bought Ducati? Most of Ducati's line has at least some Honda equivalent. They would have to be buying them for the name and I'd suspect then true 'Ducati' bikes would no longer be in production after a few years - they might be rebadged and differently tuned Hondas with a Ducati look.

But I doubt if as a motorcycle manufacturer - I'd be too terribly interested in taking on another bike manufacturer unless I was very secure in my future.

RhadamYgg

[RhadamYgg]

Someone listed the prices for the full-dress tourers. I think everyone charges less than Honda because they are the declared 'winner' for this group.

So... following this logic, you assume that the most expensive bike is the "winner"? I think there are many BMW owners out there who are laughing right now.

Nah, I just think that for that segment - there is very high demand for the Honda Gold Wing - which keeps the price artificially high. I think that if it wasn't in higher demand than the other full-dress tourers - its pricing would be more on par with the others.

And some of the things they offer on the Gold Wing wouldn't be offered like the Airbag and the super built-in GPS unit, etc. Much as I like the Gold Wing, for people like me - it is priced wayyy out of my range.

RhadamYgg