Interesting interpretation on crimes in a war zone...

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sv-wolf
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#61 Unread post by sv-wolf »

blues2cruise wrote:
sv-wolf wrote:
blues2cruise wrote:
sv-wolf wrote:
Riding on the London Underground you can hear more languages being spoken than anywhere else on the planet.
Wait until you ride a bus here. There are so many immigrants it's impossible to keep up with all the languages you hear on public transit....or in the parks...or in the shops.
That's interesting, blues

I knew you had a large number of ethnically defined groups in Canada but always imagined there was less of a general mix. You'd be very much at home over here then. :D
Well, when the pubs and restaurants finally go non smoking I will start saving up for a trip. I was in London for 2 days way back in 1974. I then spent a week in Scotland and a couple of weeks in Ireland. (I loved Scotland)
I'll join you in that sentiment, blues. Give me a shout if you make it over. I'm very conveniently located for London and also some very attractive parts of the UK. You'd be very welcome to base yourself here if you ever wanted. It's not easy to hire bikes in the UK, but I have recently discovered that there is a business close to here which hires HDs.

cheers

Richard
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#62 Unread post by qwerty »

How the lot of you can waste so many words on such a simple concept is beyond me. How you can allow Kali to sucker you into arguing with a fool is an even bigger mystery. Poli-socio-economics isn't that complicated: Those who have the gold, rule, and those who don't, complain and/or try to get the gold, so they can rule.
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#63 Unread post by kali »

qwerty wrote:How the lot of you can waste so many words on such a simple concept is beyond me. How you can allow Kali to sucker you into arguing with a fool is an even bigger mystery. Poli-socio-economics isn't that complicated: Those who have the gold, rule, and those who don't, complain and/or try to get the gold, so they can rule.
I may be antagonizing and curt, but it only because so many are too lazy or satiated to care and they need a little shaking.

What's your excuse for wasting your time being an "O Ring"?
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#64 Unread post by sv-wolf »

qwerty wrote:How the lot of you can waste so many words on such a simple concept is beyond me. How you can allow Kali to sucker you into arguing with a fool is an even bigger mystery. Poli-socio-economics isn't that complicated: Those who have the gold, rule, and those who don't, complain and/or try to get the gold, so they can rule.
Qwerty.

On the boards its hard to see beyond the text to who is writing it, but I've speculated a lot about your posts and the person behind them. For what it's worth, I'll tell you what I see and what has passed through my thoughts.

When you choose, you have a skill with words and a clarity of expression that makes your posts fascinating reading. There's a sharpness there. But what you write is often as cold as ice. You like to stand apart and make judgments on other people from the sidelines. You like to see yourself as a 'misfit.' And from that isolated position, you observe others, and critique their 'delusions'. I think that's a fairly delusional position in itself. The only unclouded way you can see other people is through the eyes of compassion, not with cynicism. The cynic sees only himself.

God! being human is difficult.

On another thread you recently accused me of having a rigid, prejudicial point of view. There may be some truth in this. Ideas do become ossified over time in your head. But I try not to let it happen. And the best way not to let it happen is to continually engage in debate. Other people's ideas cause shifts in your own. And even in the process of arranging your own ideas, you sometimes find errors or flaws in them or you come upon new thoughts.

Poli-socio-economics, as you term it, maybe isn't complicated in your mind. But personally, I've never found that to be true. Such ideas are simple only if human life is simple. Relationships with other people, with authority and with groups are invariably complex in my experience. It is one thing to understand the origin of power, another to know the mechanisms which maintain it, and yet a third to know how to challenge it.

As to some of your other comments, Kali isn't a fool. He is a human being with a point of view. You're not a fool either. Neither is Kal. Everyone sees things differently. Why should I make judgements on anyone. And why should I fail to engage with them.

Ideas are the mechanism of change in human society. Sometimes those changes are tiny, imperceptible almost, but you have to keep talking, keep thinking. What I notice is that you don't debate your ideas, at all, you just assert them from your isolated vantage point. And from that position they sound as rigid and prejudicial as it is possible to be. So I am not surprised you accused me of prejudice. As I said, cynics usually see only themselves.

And there is another thing I notice about your formula. It is entirely powerless - "it is just a 'fact', there's nuttin' you can do to change a damn thing," is what it says to me. Cynics and skeptics usually take up this powerless position. Paradoxically it makes them feel individually powerful - but alone. I constantly have to fight against becoming cynical, myself. It took me years to arrive at my present position and it places me in a very hostile environment. I get posts and comments like yours all the time. People get to be cynics usually because they have had the hope and optimism and love for their fellow beings knocked out of them. I don't want that to happen to me and I don't wish it on anyone else either.
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#65 Unread post by qwerty »

*YAWN* *scratch an itch*

Learn about "you messages".
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#66 Unread post by sv-wolf »

qwerty wrote:
Learn about "you messages".
As I said, cynics usually see only themselves.

(Well parried, by the way) :)
Hud

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#67 Unread post by kali »

sv-wolf wrote:Hiya Kali

By all the available evidence, Galloway appears to be a crook and con man.
How is it I'm not surprised.

It is the distribution of votes that elects a party to government here not the overall percentage.
We call it gerrymandering here. It may be a term borrowed from UK.

You probably know about the 'constitutional' issue here in the UK. England has not been successfully invaded or had its political institutions disrupted by external influence since the Norman Invasion of 1066. That means the English have a legal and constitutional system that is older than (and completely unlike) anything else in Europe. Everything here is based upon the ancient common law, precedent and traditional practice.

The reason we have so many bizarre and anomalous institutions is because we've never had anything like the French Revolution, so there has never been an opportunity or an incentive to tear up the system and start again on a rational basis. We just adapt what we already have to new circumstances. That is why we have medieval institutions mixed up with modern ones, eg. a hereditary King or Queen presiding, as head of state, over a modern 'democratic' system. And if we haven't got any suitable 'ancient' traditions to hand, we invent some. We're quite good at that.

The constitution' is no different, it is just a huge pile of ancient practice and tradition. Nothing is written. Within this tradition, the 'Will of Parliament' is sovereign. Parliament can do anything it damn well likes and there is no legal power to stop it. A simple majority in parliament could change the constitution wholesale any time it wanted. That doesn't happen only because the weight of tradition hangs heavy on the mental processes of British politicians and the British populace. The state must adapt, to new circumstances, the theory goes, but the weight of tradition ensures that it will change only slowly and carefully. The main stabilizing force in British law and governance is therefore historical inertia (not written documents or checks and balances).
You have succinctly summed up 1000 years of British political history and you would be lucky if 5% of the American population could repeat it.

The main counterbalance to the power system is a long history of rioting, political activism and a skeptical approach to political and legal authority among the general population. This might surprise you. We are a pretty surly lot. Yes, the British appear to be docile at present, but I suspect you will find that is skin deep.
I believe that. I've seen your soccer matches. :)
[/quote]
(I get the impression that most Americans appear to be ignorant of their own grass roots political traditions, where the populace regularly confronted power on the streets and often with great heroism and self sacrifice right from the early settlement days up to the mid-20th century.
Of course a major turning point was the US civil War. It is popularly understood as a war against slavery. It wasn't. President Lincoln repeated on many occasions that if he could preserve the union without freeing a single slave he would gladly do so. Being of Irish descent you may be aware that it was not until 3 years into the war when it seemed that the north couldn't win (the south having only not to loose) that the north fired into crowds of Irish draft resisting immigrants who couldn't afford the fee to buy themselves out of "serving their country" (see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Draft_Riots ). Only then did Lincoln embraced the moral slave freedom crusade that echoes through the Spanish/American, Philippine, Vietnam, and Iraq wars of today.

For some the Civil War marks the beginning of American imperialism, some believe the Spanish and its Philippine offshoot which came less then 10 years after the final clearing of the US mainland of the last of the Native American Indian resistance to the stealing of their land and which interestingly enough to me coincides with your own manufactured Boer war. Most don't know that the first civilian concentration camps were not invented by the Nazis', but by the British, and civilian casualties were fantastic. Photos of the camps look strikingly similar to WW2 death camps sans ovens.

Oh God this could go on, let me just say that I believe our expansion has always been. Even our president Jefferson, a proponent of an agrarian society with limited government, couldn't resist the temptation to expand the nation with his purchase of the Louisiana land tract from the French. Never mind that it wasn't his money to buy it, the French's land to sell, or that the inevitable Indian displacement would invariably involve deception and violence.

And as to the current US global imperialism, well that's just a continuation of that fine European tradition we inherited from you. And like you, when the bankers have left us broke from the interest due on the lending us of all our own future earnings, the torch will pass to the next group waiting veraciously to embrace debt and enslavement, Asia.

I'm sorry, the short answer to your remark as to whether Americans understand ANY aspect of their own history is - no.

In the UK the relationship between Parliament and government have never been clearly defined and they change slightly as governments succeed one another. Over recent years the office of the Prime Minister has become increasingly dominant both over the government and over Parliament, and this, according to many, is leading to a constitutional crisis.

As you probably know, there is no clear 'separation of powers' here, so the members of the government also have seats in Parliament. Strictly speaking, in the British system we do not elect a government. We elect individual politicians to parliament. The party which has the majority of politicians elected in parliament is, by tradition and practice, invited by the Queen to form a government. That party's leader becomes Prime Minister (usually) and he selects his major ministers, who then form 'The Cabinet,' which is the core of the UK Government.

From an establishment point of view, this all works pretty well. And, relatively speaking, it has some positive consequences. For instance, unlike most western nations who have a Bill of Rights we have none. Americans often think this is a bit scary and regard their system as superior, offering more protection for the individual. That's debatable, however. It is actually the very lack of a Bill of Rights which secures individual freedom in British society. Almost everywhere a Bill of Rights exists, the principle is 'everything is forbidden unless it is specifically included in the Bill.' Under the British system, everything is permitted unless it is specifically forbidden by law'. And that right to do anything you like so long as it is not illegal is maintained by the 'common law,' the same ancient, weighty pile of tradition I was speaking about earlier. The problem with a Bill of Rights, so the argument goes, is that it cannot codify everything that a citizen might want to do even though it might not be specifically outlawed by statute. A Bill of Rights is therefore likely to limit rather than permit individual freedoms.
I absolutely agree with this and this was a topic of heated discussion within the continental congress at that time.

In practice, looking at it from a dissenting perspective, it probably doesn't matter a damn. I don't see any particular advantage any way. Whatever way you have of codifying power relations, the result is the same. The whole legal and constitutional system as well as the doctrinal system changes and develops according to the needs of Capital, and the interests of its owners, not the needs of the population at large. That's as true here in the UK as it is in the US or anywhere else.
Although I agree with this, I would say that it is not capital as such that is the culprit as it is power, in any form. Much as an interpretation of the biblical passage that may be read as, "Money is the root of all evil", or, "The lust for money is the root of all evil."

I feel a part of the libertarian argument has some validity as concerns money's representation of my work and time and that we deserve an honest attempt to protect our choice of use of it. This is a huge area for debate of course.


I must be nuts
Who are we to disagree :laughing:

Namaste 8)
Last edited by kali on Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#68 Unread post by qwerty »

Actually, kali, Lincoln said if he could save the Union WITHOUT freeing a single slave, he would do so. Fact is, as President of the United States of America, Lincoln freed no slaves at all by legislation. Only as Commander-in-chief of the Army did Lincoln free any slaves, and the only slaves he freed were those residing in areas that the Union Army would take control of after the Emancipation Proclamation was issued. Therefore, those slaves residing in areas already controlled by the Union, including the northern states, and the territories, would remain slaves. The Emancipation Proclamation, a military order, was intended to deprive the south of its means of supporting an army, i.e., to take away the labor that grew the food used to feed the army.

Slavery was outlawed by the 13th Ammendment to the Constitution, after Lincoln was killed. Let's see if I can remember the entire Amendment:

Amendment XIII

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

I think that is pretty close. If memory serves, Amendment XIII only freed the slaves in Kentucky and Maryland, because slavery had already been legislated out of existence within their own borders by the other various states not affected by the Emancipation Proclamation, and by Congress in the territories and the South occupied before the emancipation Proclamation. Side note: Kentucky and Maryland were not part of the Confederacy-they remained in the Union during the Civil War.

Amendment XIII was first proposed to Congress only 2 1/2 months before Lincoln was assassinated. Lincoln supported the Amendment, but did not propose it. That credit goes to Senator John Brooks Henderson, Unionist, MO. Be sparing with platitudes for Senator Henderson's noble act, because his act wasn't noble at all. As a former Confederate state, Missouri's slaves were freed under the terms of the Emancipation Proclamation. Since the slave economy of Kentucky was clearly more profitable than the free economy of Missouri. Hence, Amendment XIII was economic legislation.

sv-wolf, you are definately correct in stating most Americans know next to nothing about British history and traditions. Heck, most Americans don't know didly squat about American history and traditions. Example: Most Americans swell with patriotic arogance at the strains of the 1812 Overture, totally oblivious of the fact that it begins with the French National Anthem, ends with the Russian National Anthem, and tells the story of Russia defeating Napolean's invading army in the middle. Ask Americans who wrote the Overture, and most who think they know will namw Sousa. Isn't that hilarious? BWAAHAAHAAHAAHAA!

Another example: Most Americans don't know that the National Anthem of the United States was originally written merely as a poem. Coincidence found the poem with the same form and metre as a popular British beer-drinking song named Anacreon in Heaven, the anthem of a drinking club in London. How quaint. Actually, there was likely some subconscious devilry at work in the mind of Mr. Key as he wrote the poem. He likely was thinking in the form and meter of "Anacreon in Heaven" since he had sung the song himself many times before while partying, and when he began writing the poem, he was an alcoholic without alcohol. Ouch!

Yes, I am a cynic, and a darn good one. Good historians always are. Long live Shermer!
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#69 Unread post by kali »

sv-wolf wrote:The major issue is that historically many common-ownership tribal societies went to war with their neighbours like private property ones. And the reason is not hard to find. These conflicts arose almost universally from competition over resources. But what can be observed is that conflicts always took place on property boundaries. Those societies which were not internally divided by economic boundaries lived harmonious social lives, much more so than ours, but they were forced to compete when they came up against the property boundary between themselves and neighbouring tribes when resources were lacking.
Ah, the noble savage. And what about those Mayans? Or the rest of those savages constituted the white mans of the previous era. Or the current “dysfunctional Islam” and “failed state Arabs”.
What anthropology and history show are not 'man's inhumanity to man' at all. That's a superficial reading. I'd suggest that what they show are two things: mankind's fight for individual and sectional survival, and the not surprising fact that, when man is divided artificially into competing economic groups, those groups will compete with each other - sometimes violently.
OK Mr. Marx. You are saying man is inherently good and that it is the fault of our institutions, most notably our predominantly capitalist structure, that is to blame for society’s collective ills and individual shortcomings. Correct?
And yet, it seems plainly and ridiculously obvious to me when I look around that, despite the extraordinary pressure to compete that capitalist private-ownership systems place on the individual and the group, our world would collapse in an instant without the huge degree of co-operation that takes place among us all the time.
Capitalisms proponents claim it seeks an efficient balance that includes cooperation with competition.
If Sociobioloogy tells us anything at all, then it tells us that the primates, including man, are highly co-operative, social animals. And it takes a powerfully disruptive form of economic organisation to interfere with that.
Tell that to the African Chimpanzees that regularly wage war as groups, commit murder as individuals, and even practice subtle forms of deception to engage in sexual encounters with non-alpha males. Heck, if it weren’t for this damn tilt of the axis of the earth I could probably find an ant war in my backyard right now. As well as ride my motorcycle in a tee-shirt. (Please note the gratuitous motorcycle reference to please TotalMotor’s complaints of my excessive non-motorcycle post)J
History shows only the behavior of mankind under the pressure of capitalist and pre-capitalist forms of private-ownership organization. Anthropology, on the other hand, can point to many examples of societies not economically divided in the way ours has been down the centuries, and in those societies the internal levels of individual and collective violence seen in our world are far from being the norm.
While we agree that any group of people, government or not, did not have a right to take common land during Britain’s enclosure periods and distribute it to the powerful, connected, or wealthy, and may be argued marks the beginning of privatization, I do not believe, as you assert, that collectivization regularly or even frequently did in the past, or, will in the future guarantee Utopia. I believe a fundamental error is the naive assertion that men will act in the group interest unless the group interest coincide with their own. And that it will take a large amount of coercion to force them to do so, and, that the presence of this coercion itself is a state of extremely limited to non-existent freedom Mr. Hobbes.
It's a funny thing. Whoever you ask, wherever you ask the question: do you think you are incapable of co-operating with your fellow human beings you get the answer, "Me? No of course not. It's just the other guy."
Seems you acknowledge the problem is internal to man here.
So I'm led inevitably to the same conclusion, whatever way I look at this issue. Human co-operation where violence is the exception rather than the rule is possible, but not while the national and international structure of society sets us at each other's throats, and we are forced to compete in order to survive or prosper.
And then contradict yourself.

It seems you have had some indoctrination, I mean education, in the dismal science as expounded by Marx and Keynes. Have no formal education myself and only recently becoming interested in the subject, I will try to follow along with your explanations as well as my addle mind will allow.

While I have a cursory understanding of Locke and Hobbes, I am going see if I can find a copy of Mr. Mores (not fond of ‘Sir‘) ‘Utopia’ available for online reading. That should be how far back this argument goes.

Do you think Sir Bono is a little more equal than the other pigs now?

One other question that is not rhetorical.

How would you broadly compare your vision of Utopia with pre-British invasion Tibet? As enlightened and communal a society as one could find I imagine.

All in good fun my friend.
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#70 Unread post by kali »

qwerty,

1 - Thank you for the typo correction. I went back and changed it.
2 - Thank you for taking the time to read my post so closely.
3 - I plan on taking skydiving lessons this summer. Now I've been planning to do this for about 20 years now, but I really do believe this is the year. Maybe I can get some tips as the time draws nearer. 8)
Platitudes kill!

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