My Thoughts on Rider Education (long)

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Read a book, take a course, watch a video, and when you're done you have some knowledge but the same amount of skill as before. If you don't practice you wouldn't be a good mentor.

Take a course and you will improve your skills. It may be a marginal improvement but the course will give you an opportunity to practice WITH A MENTOR on site.

'Course if you won't take a course then you might curse courses coarsely...

[beginner]

Take a course and you will improve your skills. It may be a marginal improvement but the course will give you an opportunity to practice WITH A MENTOR on site.

I'm surprised you don't endorse practice. You didn't learn those stoppies taking a course. You did that with self teaching.

[Lion_Lady]

Those folks interested in a VIDEO to watch that will improve their slow speed skills, I highly recommend, "How to Ride Like a Pro" by Jerry Paladino, (ex?) motor officer. There's also a version for the Ladies.

He provides range measurements and cone layout in the package.

P

[MZ33]

I wasn't going to respond to this interplay right this second, but my husband came by, peered over my shoulder and read the last few posts. He has a 4th degree blackbelt in karate, and still studies under his sensei. He offered this:

• "Reminds me of what Sensei has always said: 'Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. If you don't practice perfectly, then you just reinforce your bad habits. And if you don't know what perfect practice is, you won't do it.'"

CaptCrash wrote:

a Learner should be willing to listen, willing to change, open to instruction and be able to be wrong without becoming entrenched in their errors

And if that isn't there, then the best mentor would be wasting his/her time. It's a quality also referred to as "teachable."

LionLady wrote:

I'd do it in a heartbeat. We'd start with some PLP to get a feel for each other's skills, talk about goals, and then we could discuss where to ride.

Pity you aren't closer! On my first MSF course, I asked one of the instructors if he gave private lessons. He said "No, but I am willing to meet and ride with you, and give you some pointers." I didn't have a bike at the time, and I wanted to at least practice the basics with him before I took him up on it. 2 years later, I wonder if the offer still stands?? I shall have to actively pursue acquiring a mentor, I think. But I am heartened by your response, LionLady, that perhaps newbies aren't too frustrating to have around on occasion.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

I'm surprised you don't endorse practice. You didn't learn those stoppies taking a course. You did that with self teaching.

Really? I guess I'll just erase the bits where I was on SuperMotoJunkie listening, gathering input, asking for advice, APPLYING advice...OH and talking to Stunters helped too. Performance Bikes has had some nice articles on how to in the last few years... Ryan Moore was very helpful http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NVZrN4M ... re=related

In all, I didn't just run out, decide I could figure it out and yank on the front brake. (EDIT: I will admit that the first time I went for it I just had to pull the trigger--there's only so much prep work you can do--eventually you have to set your teeth and DO IT.)

WHEELIES...that's another story. If I had asked for some advice I wouldn't have pitched an XL500 down the road back in '82...I decided I knew what I was doing and I had it figured out so I just pulled the trigger. And wound up sliding flat on my back wondering what happened.

If you wheelie right now you're thinking: ALWAYS COVER THE REAR BRAKE! Which I didn't know at 18 because I didn't ask for, want, or listen to advice. IF I had asked (searched for training) I would have at least known to cover the rear...but I didn't so I got new handlebars, levers and a taillight instead.


OH, didn't I mention that practice is good? I'm looking forward to an invite to practice with the local LEOs in their spring warm up sessions. I still practice by myself as well and have always advocated practice. BUT practice isn't a panacea. Everybody needs a sensei.

[beginner]

Reminds me of what Sensei has always said: 'Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. If you don't practice perfectly, then you just reinforce your bad habits. And if you don't know what perfect practice is, you won't do it.'

If practice isn't perfect then nobody should practice except riders who are perfect but they don't need to practice because they are perfect already. But the people who don't practice say riding around is practice, right? Well if that's true people shouldn't be riding around unless they do it perfectly because it's practice and practice should only be done by the people who are perfect but that would be a waste of time because they are already perfect.

[Brackstone]

How did this post degrade into another practice debate?

Why are people still arguing with beginner?

If practice isn't perfect then nobody should practice except riders who are perfect but they don't need to practice because they are perfect already.

This statement obviously makes no sense and is easy to rebut. Someone here will take the bait, explain to him why this is flawed and then he'll come back with some other cockamamie reason as to why you're rebuttal is flawed and it'll go back and forth.

I respect that this thread has ASPECTS of practice and everything in it.

But the fact of the matter is our society (the last time I'm repeating this) is based on teacher/pupil master/student whatever/whatever. There is a reason for that, it WORKS.

If you found something else that you think works GREAT but it contradicts everything that is currently understood, studied, and practiced. So please keep it to yourself because this forum is not about giving newbies bad advice.

We can COEXIST. People can talk about practices, drills, exercises. Which ones are more efficient and which ones are less efficient. But I haven't' seen any of these threads do that once without it eventually degrading into a PLP is better than MSF sort of argument.

If everyone wants to argue with him take it to PMs or make a "PLP vs MSF vs Whatever" thread and don't lock it. Because as soon as someones locks any thread where anyone are arguing with him he just jumps into another thread and starts spreading his propaganda there too.

We have a thread about "What did you do today" that goes on for who knows how many pages, so just let people have it out with him for as long as they want.

I agreed with locking past threads and discussions but if people are going to keep feeding into his nonsense then you're either going to have to ban him or let some sort of thread like I suggested before exist.

Sorry if this comes off as me trying to tell anyone how to do their jobs but I just don't want to deal with it anymore. I asked nicely in this thread to keep it on topic and when people fail to respect that it just kind of gets on my nerves.

I'm not mad at anyone just disappointed

[jstark47]

I asked nicely in this thread to keep it on topic and when people fail to respect that it just kind of gets on my nerves.

I'm not mad at anyone just disappointed

Brackstone- Ignoring beginner's invitation to sophistic arguments ad adsurdum, I think I have a germane contribution. Actually thought of it a couple of days ago, but didn't have time to look up the background.

Several folks hit the theme of mentoring in this thread. There have also been posts on TMW recently about road-based training and practice vs. training ranges. There was an article in the August issue of Motorcycle Consumer News about a couple of advance riding courses/certifications in the UK. In the UK apparently there's significant beginner training on the road as well as in parking lots, training ranges, etc. The curricula MCN reviewed were advanced, building on the UK-style beginner training. The article was lengthy, but the main points are:

• - initial rides to get the flavor of the advanced curriculum before committing to it
  - an assigned Observer (mentor)
  - pre-training interviews to establish mutually acceptable goals and identify riding issues
  - training rides with the Observer following, and periodically providing feedback
  - demo rides where the Observer demonstrates techniques
  - freedom to tailor the training after the initial ride to the rider's needs
  - open-ended quantity of training rides before the certification exam

Wish we had something like this in the USA. The local company in my area that does the MSF BRC and ERC has been talking about developing an advanced road-based course for several years, but so far nothing has come of it. The two UK advanced courses/certifications were from the Institute of Advanced Motorists and the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents. Can any of our UK members provide more insight on what these organizations do?

[Brackstone]

I asked nicely in this thread to keep it on topic and when people fail to respect that it just kind of gets on my nerves.

I'm not mad at anyone just disappointed

Brackstone- Ignoring beginner's invitation to sophistic arguments ad adsurdum, I think I have a germane contribution. Actually thought of it a couple of days ago, but didn't have time to look up the background.

Several folks hit the theme of mentoring in this thread. There have also been posts on TMW recently about road-based training and practice vs. training ranges. There was an article in the August issue of Motorcycle Consumer News about a couple of advance riding courses/certifications in the UK. In the UK apparently there's significant beginner training on the road as well as in parking lots, training ranges, etc. The curricula MCN reviewed were advanced, building on the UK-style beginner training. The article was lengthy, but the main points are:

• - initial rides to get the flavor of the advanced curriculum before committing to it
  - an assigned Observer (mentor)
  - pre-training interviews to establish mutually acceptable goals and identify riding issues
  - training rides with the Observer following, and periodically providing feedback
  - demo rides where the Observer demonstrates techniques
  - freedom to tailor the training after the initial ride to the rider's needs
  - open-ended quantity of training rides before the certification exam

Wish we had something like this in the USA. The local company in my area that does the MSF BRC and ERC has been talking about developing an advanced road-based course for several years, but so far nothing has come of it. The two UK advanced courses/certifications were from the Institute of Advanced Motorists and the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents. Can any of our UK members provide more insight on what these organizations do?

I agree that's something I would be interested in. I'd still like to do the more advanced MSF courses but going on a trip with other people would be fun and educational at the same time.

I would like more information about these organizations do as well.

[beginner]

There was an article in the August issue of Motorcycle Consumer News about a couple of advance riding courses/certifications in the UK. In the UK apparently there's significant beginner training on the road
- an assigned Observer (mentor)
- pre-training interviews to establish mutually acceptable goals and identify riding issues
- training rides with the Observer following, and periodically providing feedback
- demo rides where the Observer demonstrates techniques
- freedom to tailor the training after the initial ride to the rider's needs
- open-ended quantity of training rides before the certification exam[/list]
Wish we had something like this in the USA. The local company in my area that does the MSF BRC and ERC has been talking about developing an advanced road-based course for several years, but so far nothing has come of it.

It seems like what you are describing is one on one private lessons. I wonder what a typical hourly charge for that would be.

If that training is subsidized by the government they would probably have some proficiency pre requisites. It would be VERY interesting to know what those are.