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High_Side wrote:

RhadamYgg wrote:Well, even if Honda goes to larger vehicles for hybrids (which I think is what I got out of that sentence) there are some advantages to hybrids in larger vehicles. Even a modest increase in mpg can be big bucks when your vehicle starts at 15 mpg. We may see a lot of this with the new CAFE standards and some of the companies with a lot of larger vehicles need to bring their overall vehicle mpg up.

I also suspect that internally, car manufacturers may set quotas on the maximum number of large vehicles they will sell to keep their overall mpg higher. So, people might be forced in to smaller vehicles as demand outstrips the number of larger pick-up trucks that say - Ford/Toyota/Chrysler/GM really want to sell in a year because their cars don't get high enough mpg or sell enough of the higher mpg cars to make up for the bad mpg of the larger vehicles.

The good news is that larger pick-ups are finally seeing better mileage. The F-150 that I brought home today is rated at 25 mi / imp gallon, and judging by the demo that I had last weekend that is really not that far off. The GMC that I also looked at was rated at 30 mi / imp gallon. That is a heck of a lot better than the last one that I owned. It's no Prius, but a Prius sucks at pulling a trailer and hauling my quad

Yea man...and then I have my I4 06 Nissan Frontier that gets a crappy 22 miles to the gallon.

Some of the F150s have been getting good mpg for a while now - the last time I looked at one (I think it was a 6 cyl) it was near 30 mpg or something (which is better than what my car gets). But no way could you see a F250 or F350 getting that kind of mpg. Probably the standard pickup body, too. No club cab, quad cab, minivan in the front dually with a toilet in it is going to get that good a mpg.

hmmm, maybe I am wrong. Just went to Ford USA's site. The Ford Ranger gets 22/27, the F150 15/19 and well.... the other ones don't even list the mpg on the easy to see flyover - well, the Ford Transit Connect does, 22/25, which is comparable to my Accord coupe, for a lot more utility.

koji52 wrote:

High_Side wrote:

RhadamYgg wrote:Well, even if Honda goes to larger vehicles for hybrids (which I think is what I got out of that sentence) there are some advantages to hybrids in larger vehicles. Even a modest increase in mpg can be big bucks when your vehicle starts at 15 mpg. We may see a lot of this with the new CAFE standards and some of the companies with a lot of larger vehicles need to bring their overall vehicle mpg up.

I also suspect that internally, car manufacturers may set quotas on the maximum number of large vehicles they will sell to keep their overall mpg higher. So, people might be forced in to smaller vehicles as demand outstrips the number of larger pick-up trucks that say - Ford/Toyota/Chrysler/GM really want to sell in a year because their cars don't get high enough mpg or sell enough of the higher mpg cars to make up for the bad mpg of the larger vehicles.

The good news is that larger pick-ups are finally seeing better mileage. The F-150 that I brought home today is rated at 25 mi / imp gallon, and judging by the demo that I had last weekend that is really not that far off. The GMC that I also looked at was rated at 30 mi / imp gallon. That is a heck of a lot better than the last one that I owned. It's no Prius, but a Prius sucks at pulling a trailer and hauling my quad

Yea man...and then I have my I4 06 Nissan Frontier that gets a crappy 22 miles to the gallon.

The '01 Supercharged Crew-Cab Nissan that I just traded in got 14 / Imp gallon. What a POS

I have yet to see anybodys prius only get 30 mpg. My mom owns one and it consistently gets around 55 mpg (used mainly for city driving, it drops to the high 40s on the highway).

The main reason why that 92 civic gets better milage than a 2010 fit is weight, that civic is probably almost 1000lbs lighter than the newer fit. Newer crash test standards requiring stiffer structure, airbags, and the general desire for quieter, more comfortable cars with more ammenities has driven vehicle weight up considerably.

Modern subcompacts like the Fit, Cube, Fiesta, etc weigh around 2600-2800lbs, an early 90s subcompact was more like 1900-2200lbs. For that sacrifice of a few mpg your getting a vehicle that is much safer (better structural design, airbags, better brakes w/ std abs being the norm, traction/stability control, etc), much quieter, much much much lower emissions, better equipped, have usable back seats and larger trunk/hatch area, and are faster to boot

My 02 GTI gets over 30 mpg, its not some boring little breadbox car

The only way you are going to see any meaningful paradigm shift to renewable energy in the US is when the oil finally runs dry or when the price per gallon goes out of sight. Both of which will happen some day, that is a certainty. I've seen numbers anywhere from 10 years to 500 years, so who the hell knows. All I know is for every one Prius I see out there we have twenty Ford F350's out on the road. As long as oil is relatively cheap like it is now that's what people want to drive. I don't know how people can afford to drive these tanks all day long.

I used to think I was "doing my part" by taking the bus or riding my bike. Ha hah what a fool I was. If you are driving a high MPG car or ride a bike because it saves you money, good for you. It's the right thing to do. If you are doing it because it's "good for the planet" you are kidding yourself. You just saved more gas for the guy in the Hummer, which I'm sure he appreciates.

RhadamYgg wrote:Some of the F150s have been getting good mpg for a while now - the last time I looked at one (I think it was a 6 cyl) it was near 30 mpg or something (which is better than what my car gets). But no way could you see a F250 or F350 getting that kind of mpg. Probably the standard pickup body, too. No club cab, quad cab, minivan in the front dually with a toilet in it is going to get that good a mpg.

my 98 super cab gets 20mpg so I cant see why the newer models cant get 30mpg or at least close to it.

Gunslinger wrote:The only way you are going to see any meaningful paradigm shift to renewable energy in the US is when the oil finally runs dry or when the price per gallon goes out of sight. Both of which will happen some day, that is a certainty. I've seen numbers anywhere from 10 years to 500 years, so who the hell knows. All I know is for every one Prius I see out there we have twenty Ford F350's out on the road. As long as oil is relatively cheap like it is now that's what people want to drive. I don't know how people can afford to drive these tanks all day long.

I used to think I was "doing my part" by taking the bus or riding my bike. Ha hah what a fool I was. If you are driving a high MPG car or ride a bike because it saves you money, good for you. It's the right thing to do. If you are doing it because it's "good for the planet" you are kidding yourself. You just saved more gas for the guy in the Hummer, which I'm sure he appreciates.

Alot of people who own f-350's use them for a job related function. Without that F-350 they wouldnt have that job. Some people do it to tow their toys around but most of them have very good jobs. People that have an F350 to tow their toys usually drive some sort of better MPG vehicle to work or they just move closer to work.

jmillheiser wrote:I have yet to see anybodys prius only get 30 mpg. My mom owns one and it consistently gets around 55 mpg (used mainly for city driving, it drops to the high 40s on the highway).

The main reason why that 92 civic gets better milage than a 2010 fit is weight, that civic is probably almost 1000lbs lighter than the newer fit. Newer crash test standards requiring stiffer structure, airbags, and the general desire for quieter, more comfortable cars with more ammenities has driven vehicle weight up considerably.

Modern subcompacts like the Fit, Cube, Fiesta, etc weigh around 2600-2800lbs, an early 90s subcompact was more like 1900-2200lbs. For that sacrifice of a few mpg your getting a vehicle that is much safer (better structural design, airbags, better brakes w/ std abs being the norm, traction/stability control, etc), much quieter, much much much lower emissions, better equipped, have usable back seats and larger trunk/hatch area, and are faster to boot

My 02 GTI gets over 30 mpg, its not some boring little breadbox car

Hmmmm, Yeah, I think you have hit it dead on. Still, my 1992 Civic had a steel cage (first for that model), but it was a much smaller car. It also had a driver side airbag (no passenger side yet, if I remember correctly and certainly no curtains, etc). No ABS for sure, certainly no traction control. Hell, the current Civics are probably as big as the Accords from that time period. You would think though that a modern fit, with the materials technology available should be stronger and lighter than the 1992 Civic. But that always depends on how money you want to spend on an aluminum Plymouth Prowler type frame.

I remember two things about the Prowler. 1) The aluminum frame was the same as the steel cast - weight savings was on mass. 2) It was so strong they had to weaken it for crash tests.

Which tells me that we don't know enough (or didn't know enough then) to make an aluminum frame as light as possible and still offer the same or slightly better strength than steel. The Prowler could have been even lighter, I suspect.

But I'll also argue that systems like ABS and Traction control only weigh 5 pounds on a motorcycle and so shouldn't be a major contributor to the weight of a car.

But I'll argue against myself that the "faster to boot" is the real question. My old Civic could move - really nice - when new I could chirp them in to third gear. It had 101 hp, if I remember correctly. I think most of the Civics now have much more horsepower - which means bigger engines and the need for more stopping power, etc.

ofblong wrote:

Gunslinger wrote:The only way you are going to see any meaningful paradigm shift to renewable energy in the US is when the oil finally runs dry or when the price per gallon goes out of sight. Both of which will happen some day, that is a certainty. I've seen numbers anywhere from 10 years to 500 years, so who the hell knows. All I know is for every one Prius I see out there we have twenty Ford F350's out on the road. As long as oil is relatively cheap like it is now that's what people want to drive. I don't know how people can afford to drive these tanks all day long.

I used to think I was "doing my part" by taking the bus or riding my bike. Ha hah what a fool I was. If you are driving a high MPG car or ride a bike because it saves you money, good for you. It's the right thing to do. If you are doing it because it's "good for the planet" you are kidding yourself. You just saved more gas for the guy in the Hummer, which I'm sure he appreciates.

Alot of people who own f-350's use them for a job related function. Without that F-350 they wouldnt have that job. Some people do it to tow their toys around but most of them have very good jobs. People that have an F350 to tow their toys usually drive some sort of better MPG vehicle to work or they just move closer to work.

When I lived in the south (ending 1998) trucks were a status symbol. The bigger the better. My neighbor installed satellite dishes and he bought the biggest baddest dually Dodge truck I've ever seen. He's a working man, no doubt, but there was no way he couldn't have made do with something normal.

Anyway, for every guy like that there are a lot of guys that need the capacity of a F350/juggernaut.

Still, when you see stuff like that it rubs you wrong, like a police office using his lights to get by a red light and then turning them off.