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storysunfolding wrote:Right... but months later you're still leagues behind my students that have taken the BRC, ERC and an ARC all in one year. They've already mastered trail braking, advanced cornering and body positioning in addition to the limit space maneuvers, threshold braking and swerves.

Now you sound like someone who is promoting a product. Why should I be expected to accomplish as much in six months as others do in a year? Second, why do you assume I can't do these various things you mention? How many practice hours do you advise your students to do to accomplish what you describe? Do you have video showing these accomplishments of your one year students? I made a few videos of my progress this summer of things I wanted to watch. http://www.youtube.com/user/motormanmagoo

Your inability to do a gymkhana style figure 8 confirms this in my mind.

I did not say I was unable. I could have practiced them earlier but there are more productive things for me to do to build a foundation for that.

A balancing maneuver? I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that.

When someone reads a book, or listens to instructions it's their thinking mind that's learning. The human motor/balance system learns nothing from that. It only learns by direct experience. Practice is when the motor/balance system gets the most productive learning. Very slow riding in general works the most directly on pure balance.

Here's a fun one though- Try a slow ride figure 8. As a beginner (rimshot) it should take you two minutes to complete one rotation, then work on getting that number higher. Now that's a balancing routine.

What are the dimensions of the figure 8 that should take 2 minutes to complete? The difficulty would depend on those dimensions.

Um... I do? 8 cans of tennis balls and I have more cones than I need for a full circuit. If you ask, many motormen will let you come on the range with them. Also, setting up these courses is something we do monthly. Not sure where you're getting this info.

There are several problems. There is no parking lot I can monopolize with a huge course layout. My hour of daily practice is usually divided into several session. I'm not going to spend hours laying out hundreds of cones even if I had them. I do set out 10-15 half tennis balls at a time.

We have a HOG versus fairfax county police competition every few years. The cops only win about half the time.

I have watched many police rodeo videos on youtube. I have never seen one where civilians are in the competion with motor police in the large cone layouts. Do you have a video where that's happening?

No FFX county motorman has been able to beat one of our local MSF coaches in a slow ride. ever.

It does not take hundreds of cones to be competitive at slow riding.

Cops rarely if ever learn to modulate with the front brake. That is a hard to develop advanced technique so they're never taught it.

The dictionary defines "modulate" as follows, "To adjust or adapt to a certain proportion; regulate or temper." You say police riders are not taught nor are they capable of modulating their brakes?

You can go take a police style course though the ones available to civilians often leave out high speed chases, rolling dismounts and stair navigation (and they can keep those!).

I found one of those police courses for civilians and it showed all the patterns they have the students ride. By looking at them I know I can ride them yet I'm sure I could not navigate the huge cone layouts I see in the competitions without a lot more practice. To do those would involve still more exercises.

You can find their exercises online.

I'd appreciate a link to those exercies you refer to. The only thing I've found when I search is the gigantic cone patterns. I'm interested in the exercises motor police do to be competitive when the large cone patterns aren't available.

There are ride like a motorman DVD's.

Motorman promotes his course by claiming you'll "ride like a pro" in a matter of hours.

storysunfolding wrote:There has been a recommendation to take the course so that you aren't teaching yourself bad habits..

Instead of criticizing my practice you could talk about your practice..

For instance, I can point out a few bad habits from your picture alone..

I mentioned in a couple other posts already, I made some videos this summer. http://www.youtube.com/user/motormanmagoo Instead of criticizing them you could show some videos of your practice.

If you're truly the bees knees,

Where did I claim that? I have 300 hours of riding time in 6 months. Half of that PLP, the other half riding quiet roads under 30 mph and off-road. How talented I am compared to others who have 300 hours of riding time, I wouldn't have a clue. The only people I have to compare myself to are youtube videos and most of those are put up by people with thousands of hours.

Do you have any videos showing how beginner riders should be looking on their bikes after 6 months? I would be very interested to see that.

beginner wrote:]Now you sound like someone who is promoting a product.

Yep, I promote rider training. As to why you'd want to master those techniques in your first year, you'll need them when you actually hit the road.

Practice is when the motor/balance system gets the most productive learning. Very slow riding in general works the most directly on pure balance.

So balancing a motorcycle is the lifesaving skill you are practicing? Btw, the figure 8 I'm telling you to run is 4 parking stalls just as you're doing yours.

There are several problems. There is no parking lot I can monopolize with a huge course layout. My hour of daily practice is usually divided into several session. I'm not going to spend hours laying out hundreds of cones even if I had them. I do set out 10-15 half tennis balls at a time.

That's crazy. I live inside the DC beltway and have no trouble finding parking lots. Especially on weekends. Anyway if you look at the police courses you'll notice that they have lots of cones grouped closely together. You don't need cones that close to setup the same circuit as the video, only 40-45 cones and it takes about 10 minutes to setup. They use so many cones so it's very obvious during competition. If you set it up yourself you should be fine.

I have watched many police rodeo video on youtube. I have never seen one where civilians are in the competion with motor police in the large cone layouts. Do you have a video where that's happening?

I'm not surprised that civilians aren't in POLICE rodeos. You're killing me here man. This spring when we have another one I'll take my video camera just for you.

It does not take hundreds of cones to be competitive at slow riding.

No kidding- so stop making excuses.

The dictionary defines "modulate" as follows, "To adjust or adapt to a certain proportion; regulate or temper." You say police riders are not taught nor are they capable of modulating their brakes?

I should have clarified as slow speeds but I thought that was obvious from the slow ride reference. They are taught to use rear brake only.

I found one of those police courses for civilians and it showed all the patterns they have the students ride. By looking at them I know I can ride them yet I'm sure I could not navigate the huge cone layouts I see in the competitions without a lot more practice.

I've seen a riderless bike pass a bike during a race. That doesn't mean that's the way you should ride. Personally, I don't think you can know that you can do it unless you try. Furthermore, just because you can do it, doesn't mean you are doing it well.

I'd appreciate a link to those exercies you refer to. The only thing I've found when I search is the gigantic cone patterns. I'm interested in the exercises motor police do to be competitive when the large cone patterns aren't available.

sigh... google is your friend. http://www.motorcops.com/police_trainin ... tterns.asp

Motorman promotes his course by claiming you'll "ride like a pro" in a matter of hours.

motorman is a term for a motorcycle cop.


Ok now here's some reality. If you don't actually want advice then stop asking for it. It seems like you find a problem in every piece of advice someone gives you.

I looked at your videos. Here's some more advice. In all your videos, you need to learn to counter balance the motorcycle, straighten your inside arm to help with that, look through your turn (central vision is only 3 degrees and the body has the ability to take a mental picture), keep your eyes up (I promise the ground isn't going anywhere) put the balls of your feel on your footpegs where you have more control you move them around a lot and it doesn't seem like you are using the rear brake or shifting so I don't understand why you'd do that. And please, video yourself practicing something like quick stops, swerves, cornering or something more interesting. Hell, video tape a slow one!

You're not getting anywhere near that motorcycles limits. It can scrape pegs while doing uturns, you just need to learn to get it there. I still think you'd benefit from professional instruction- Valentino Rossi, Ben Spies, Keith Code, Lee Parks- all great riders and all had professional training

storysunfolding wrote:the figure 8 I'm telling you to run is 4 parking stalls just as you're doing yours.

The path of an 18' by 36' figure 8 is 113'. To go 113' in 120 seconds means moving at less than 1 foot per second, 0.942 ft/sec, which is 0.642 mph. I can slow ride in a straight line fairly reliably at 1.2 mph according to my GPS. I cannot navigate an 18' circle at 1.2 mph so it's sure I can't do it at half that speed. Please show a video of someone doing an 18' by 36' figure 8 at 0.642 mph.

(18'x3.14=56.52' x 2 = 113'/120 seconds= 0.942 fps * 3,600=3,391 ft per hour / 5,280 ft in a mile = 0.642 mph)

I live inside the DC beltway and have no trouble finding parking lots. Especially on weekends.

My bike is parked on a farm. There is one small parking lot close by. After that the next nearest lot is 8 miles away, busier, and not much larger than the one close by.

Anyway if you look at the police courses you'll notice that they have lots of cones grouped closely together. You don't need cones that close to setup the same circuit as the video, only 40-45 cones and it takes about 10 minutes to setup. They use so many cones so it's very obvious during competition. If you set it up yourself you should be fine.

Those police courses are impractical for a single person to set up for their short term use.

sigh... google is your friend. http://www.motorcops.com/police_trainin ... tterns.asp

I've been to that site. That's all very large cone patterns. I was referring to useful drills and exercises, motor police might do, that can be done without the requirement of setting up many cones.

motorman is a term for a motorcycle cop.

I know the common usage of the term motorman. My point is he makes extravagant claims for his course.

If you don't actually want advice then stop asking for it. It seems like you find a problem in every piece of advice someone gives you.

Where have I asked for advice? How about a discussion. Sharing ideas, enjoying the topic. Do you have any practice videos?

you need to learn to counter balance the motorcycle,

The videos record practices from 6 weeks to 26 weeks. Up to 12 weeks I was stiff on the bike, numb hands on the grips, in practice. I finally understood the relationship of upper body mass to the motion and lean of the bike at about 12-13 weeks. The 3 most recent videos were made after that.

put the balls of your feel on your footpegs where you have more control you move them around a lot and it doesn't seem like you are using the rear brake or shifting so I don't understand why you'd do that.

May be in a maneuver that's getting shakey a foot goes out in case I have to catch the bike. Otherwise the balls of my feet are glued to the pegs unless I'm braking or shifting.

video yourself practicing something like quick stops, swerves, cornering or something more interesting. Hell, video tape a slow one!

I do brake practice on the roads where it's not practical to set up the camera. The parking lot is smaller than it looks.

You're not getting anywhere near that motorcycles limits.

Am I supposed to be riding at the limits of the bike that after 6 months? Trying to do that at my level sounds like a way to get hurt.

It can scrape pegs while doing uturns, you just need to learn to get it there.

The pegs are a foot off the ground and mounted on a narrower chassis than most road bikes. If and when I can scrape those pegs I'll make a video.

I still think you'd benefit from professional instruction- Valentino Rossi, Ben Spies, Keith Code, Lee Parks- all great riders and all had professional training

I might be interested in instruction that is a series of lessions spaced over several months and focused entiely on riding skills and technique. I'm not looking for a class focused on traffic hazards. The closest traffic to where my bike is parked is 30 miles away.

beginner wrote:Riding around is practice going straight but not swerving and braking practice.

beginner wrote:I do brake practice on the roads where it's not practical to set up the camera.

For anyone else reading along- see if you can spot all the other ones.

Anyway I saw from BARF that you're in Port Austin Mi so I can actually understand where all this is coming from. So could any rider who has a look at your local roads

So you do an offset weave with u turns in a parking lot and braking practice on the road (:roll:). What other exercises do you do? If you don't have room to practice I'm not sure what you'll get out of hearing what I do. You should also be much farther at 6 months. BRC students stay within a 20 foot you turn on their second day riding or roughly hour 6, you should easily be considerably further along than they are with so many hours practicing.

When I practice I try to do all the following: uturns, slow riding, weaves, swerves both in a straight line and in a turn, quick stops (straight line and in a curve), decreasing radius turns, brake then evade (both full stop and rolling), trail braking (figure 8 or speed circle), 130 degree starts from a stop in both directions. I don't record myself riding, I practice enough with friends at the same level that can give me constructive feedback. They can give me better feedback than a 3 inch lcd screen where I go in and out of the shot. Between setup and break down this takes about 30-45 minutes. When we setup courses, we normally use ones like David Houghe's or the motormen courses (not the guy, the police riders...) and spend about an hour between setup and breakdown.

Then we hit the twisties

Those police courses are impractical for a single person to set up for their short term use.

I don't know what to tell you. I do it at least once a month. It doesn't take long either. Also, for many of those exercises you only need to use one in five cones listed. Look at the staircase, brake and evade, lollipop and winged wheel to name a few. All can be setup in the parking lot at the beginning of this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxvSYOmT ... annel_page

Tell us more about what you do to practice.

storysunfolding wrote:What other exercises do you do?

Figure 8s in several diameters and speeds in first and second gear on pavement and off road.
Figure 8s on an 18' foot road bed to practice head checks
Uturns in several diameters and speeds in first and second gear in the parking lot, on the 18' road bed and off-road.
Snap turns (my term) 90 degree turns on a 9' radius in a pattern called a turn box figure 8 (my term)
Weaves with and without cones in various shapes and speeds in second gear.
2by4 exercise
slow ride on a few degrees up slope, on a few degrees down slope
Straight line braking from various speeds not faster than 30 mph always with both brakes, on the flat, up hill, down hill, in sod, sand, gravel and pavement. (Because of how and where I ride I virtually never use brakes except in practice. I've had one emergency stop, for deer.)
swerves in the parking lot and road.
rear wheel slips on grass and pavement (brand new, in the last week of the season)
Various turns from a stop (not very hard, not very interesting since I'm on a small bike and don't ride in traffic)
I tried a few brake and escape style maneuvers (again, not very interesting right now since I'm not in traffic)
I'm sure I've forgotton a few.

You should also be much farther at 6 months.

You've made that claim several times. So far I am the only one who offers videos of what I'm doing. I've asked for evidence. Your opinion is not evidence.

BRC students stay within a 20 foot you turn on their second day riding or roughly hour 6.

What a person can do on their first or second day of riding is irrelevent unless the goal is to pass a test the next day. The difference between my 20' circle in the early days and my 20' circle at 6 months is huge. The 6 month circle matters, the first day circle does not. On my first day I rode for 15 minutes. On the second day 30 minutes. May be an hour a day by the end of the first week. By 2 weeks I was doing two hours a day, divided into several rides, and it stayed at that.

you should easily be considerably further along than they are with so many hours practicing.

Evidence please. Again, your opinion is not evidence. Never the less, the progress your superior students allegedly made after 6 months depends on what they did during the 6 months, not what they did in their first two days of riding.

When I practice I try to do all the following: uturns, slow riding, weaves, swerves both in a straight line and in a turn, quick stops (straight line and in a curve), decreasing radius turns, brake then evade (both full stop and rolling), trail braking (figure 8 or speed circle), 130 degree starts from a stop in both directions. I don't record myself riding, I practice enough with friends at the same level that can give me constructive feedback. They can give me better feedback than a 3 inch lcd screen where I go in and out of the shot. Between setup and break down this takes about 30-45 minutes. When we setup courses, we normally use ones like David Houghe's or the motormen courses (not the guy, the police riders...) and spend about an hour between setup and breakdown.Then we hit the twisties

No twisties where I am.

beginner, I invite you to participate in other parts of the forum. Lots of interesting stuff going on outside of this one thread that all 28 of your posts are in. It makes you seem a bit trollish to be arguing one point over and over. Just my opinion.

Due to numerous pm's I will no longer feed the troll. It's just so boring around DC with everything being clogged up by inauguration tourists. I blame Barak Obama

storysunfolding wrote:Due to numerous pm's I will no longer feed the troll. It's just so boring around DC with everything being clogged up by inauguration tourists. I blame Barak Obama

LOL. and LOL @ JohnJ. Seriously story I see he completly missed your point.