My Thoughts on Rider Education (long)

[jstark47]

It seems like what you are describing is one on one private lessons. I wonder what a typical hourly charge for that would be.

If that training is subsidized by the government they would probably have some proficiency pre requisites. It would be VERY interesting to know what those are.

That's not at all what I'm describing. If you want facts to shape your opinions (novel concept, I know) go look at the August 2008 issue of Motorcycle Consumer News, pp. 24-29

[RhadamYgg]

No doubt private lessons could be offered and if there was demand enough people would pay for them and perhaps there would be a government involvement with certifications, etc.

All of that costs money and government interference is least likely to gain traction with most motorcyclists.

What could work would be a group oriented only towards one goal - the safety of other motorcyclists. It would have minimal costs - maybe membership to a website like TMW or in actuality TMW.

People would register as mentors and people would register as learners. Certification would be unlikely due to geography. While there would be a core group that runs the organization and attaches mentors with learners. There would be a core philosophy introducing the basic definitions of who a mentor is - their characteristics (in general).

Some things like
- must have 3 years experience (the MSF uses that for their conversion of riders to teachers)
- a certain amount of mileage ( a minimum )
- attitude or orientation towards safety

An actual riders test in person might not be possible; however, a video of the test might be useful. It is also, unfortunately, fakable. Perhaps all the mentors tests would be published on youtube - and if a dupe is out there the faker would be discovered.

But this is just me raving, I'm not sure exactly how it would work. I suppose the devil is in the details.

I personally, wouldn't qualify as a mentor, yet. Even with 5300+ miles under my belt, I still haven't ridden for more than 1 year, much less 3 years.

Part of the requirement might also deal with the mix of riding a person has accomplished. While I've ridden 5300+ miles, the vast majority of those miles have been on my commute on highways. Strategies for dealing with local street traffic may not be as refined in me as a rider as for other people.

RhadamYgg

[MZ33]

Kind of brings us back to where LionLady was mulling over the possibilities of a thread just for mentors & manatees to meet up.

[RhadamYgg]

Kind of brings us back to where LionLady was mulling over the possibilities of a thread just for mentors & manatees to meet up.

You know Manatees are some weird looking creatures.

Every time I go to Florida I always hear about how they may be the basis for the mermaid legends and this about how weird looking they are and really wonder about myself and men in general.

RhadamYgg

[tymanthius]

You know Manatees are some weird looking creatures.

Every time I go to Florida I always hear about how they may be the basis for the mermaid legends and this about how weird looking they are and really wonder about myself and men in general.

RhadamYgg

Stick you on a sailing ship for a year or so w/o any female compainionship & lets see what you think is pretty.

I've known a few sailors, and they all say their perceptions are very skewed after being at sea for a while.

[Lion_Lady]

Actually, here on the East Coast, there's a road riding course called "The Riders Workshop." It is taught by a gentleman I know, Jim Ford.

I have no connection to Jim, only know he is a well respected rider in these parts, and is building a name for himself through his course.

Pricey, and definitely on my "one of these days" list.

www.ridersworkshop.com

Pam

[Penguin]

I asked nicely in this thread to keep it on topic and when people fail to respect that it just kind of gets on my nerves.

I'm not mad at anyone just disappointed

Brackstone- Ignoring beginner's invitation to sophistic arguments ad adsurdum, I think I have a germane contribution. Actually thought of it a couple of days ago, but didn't have time to look up the background.

Several folks hit the theme of mentoring in this thread. There have also been posts on TMW recently about road-based training and practice vs. training ranges. There was an article in the August issue of Motorcycle Consumer News about a couple of advance riding courses/certifications in the UK. In the UK apparently there's significant beginner training on the road as well as in parking lots, training ranges, etc. The curricula MCN reviewed were advanced, building on the UK-style beginner training. The article was lengthy, but the main points are:

• - initial rides to get the flavor of the advanced curriculum before committing to it
  - an assigned Observer (mentor)
  - pre-training interviews to establish mutually acceptable goals and identify riding issues
  - training rides with the Observer following, and periodically providing feedback
  - demo rides where the Observer demonstrates techniques
  - freedom to tailor the training after the initial ride to the rider's needs
  - open-ended quantity of training rides before the certification exam

Wish we had something like this in the USA. The local company in my area that does the MSF BRC and ERC has been talking about developing an advanced road-based course for several years, but so far nothing has come of it. The two UK advanced courses/certifications were from the Institute of Advanced Motorists and the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents. Can any of our UK members provide more insight on what these organizations do?

Hey JStark,

The IAM (Institute of Advanced Motorists) and RSPA (Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents) are both organizations set up, as far as I'm aware, to provide advanced training for both car drivers and motorbike riders and make them safer on the roads. They're generally known as advanced tests I think.

To clear things up, they are not one-on-one lessons. You don't pay for them. They are free. Is that clear enough beginner??! You can pay for instructors if you want, but it's available free so I don't see why you would. For example, one group of ex-police riders (In the UK police riders are highly proficient - they're trained really well) take people attempting their advanced test out and observe for them. In return the trainees buy the ex-police riders dinner, as a thank-you gesture

The actual idea behind it is that other riders who have passed their Advanced Test volunteer to be "observers", which basically act as mentors. They follow you for a ride, then give their advice on how to improve your riding. They will demonstrate things if you want, and all the other stuff JStark mentioned.

I can't quite remember the numbers, but it has been showed that Advanced riders have less accidents. They get cheaper insurance because of this, which is a ncie bonus on top of the safety

Hope that clears it up?
Penguin

[TEvo]

Been out of the loop on this now six page long thread for awhile...

Perhaps one of the hurdles to popularizing and making accessible on-road training en masse here in the United States is one of legal liability.

I don't know how Stayin'Safe <www.stayinsafe.com> affords it but the insurance to cover legal liability can't be cheap.

Personally I, for one, do not want to be leading new or even novice riders out on public roads...

[RhadamYgg]

Been out of the loop on this now six page long thread for awhile...

Perhaps one of the hurdles to popularizing and making accessible on-road training en masse here in the United States is one of legal liability.

I don't know how Stayin'Safe <www.stayinsafe.com> affords it but the insurance to cover legal liability can't be cheap.

Personally I, for one, do not want to be leading new or even novice riders out on public roads...

You know, that's a really good point. I'm sure there would be releases involved and statements about not guaranteeing the safety as riding can be a dangerous activity, etc.

But in some ways I don't see how this would be (much) different than say advanced driver courses.

Of course, only police typically take advanced driving courses.

RhadamYgg

[CaptCrashIdaho]

I think if you look at the basic rules of the Stayin' Safe guys, it's really a guided ride. The stops are places where technique is discussed but I'll bet that they never directly point at a turn and say "DO IT THIS WAY"--rather you give general input that can be applied by the guest.