Total Motorcycle Community Forums

Before I start getting some scathing replies, I would like to say that I completely understand and whole-heartedly agree with the lesson that people are attempting to teach, I just think the method of instruction is horribly bad.

Whenever a motorcyclist is in a close call, every other rider starts asking them, "What did you do wrong?" "What could you have done to avoid this?" "Why weren't you paying attention to what they were doing?" "Why didn't you know last year that this particular driver was going to swerve into your lane completely unannounced just as you were going around?"

Seriously, I get it. Pay attention, plan a way out, minimize your time in 'vulnerable' areas (blind spots, right-of-way contests, etc). Guess what, I can't control every driver on the road. I can't tell you exactly what that other person is thinking about, I don't know when someone's going to cut me off or attempt to merge into me. I pay attention. I try to keep a way out in mind at all times, I try to see the vulnerable areas before I'm in them and stay out of them as much as possible.

...and here comes the big fat BUT! But, I just can't tell you when someone's going to just completely miss my headlight, my turn signal, my reflective gear, my contrasting colors, my right-of-way, my loud pipes, my stylish flame paint job, my oscillating high-beam, or anything else I can do to bring attention to myself. I can do everything right, but that doesn't mean that everyone else is. There comes a time when you just have to accept a certain level of risk, or stay off the road. Seriously, if I get cut off, don't ask me why I didn't give him more room. Don't ask me why I wasn't in another lane. Don't ask me why I didn't turn left 3 miles ago to completely avoid this dangerous car that apparently has a magical neon sign on it that every other rider can see except me. I can't read the future, I can't read minds, and I sure can't point out every stupid person on the road every day.

The example that comes to mind is from the MSF Basic Rider's Course workbook. This isn't an exact reprint, but it's the best I can remember: Riding along minding your own business, come over a small rise and around a curve and a car pulls out in front of you and you end up getting clipped. You're not seriously injured, but you went down and your bike is slightly damaged. Car driver doesn't have a license and says he was distracted by the glare on his windshield and never saw the motorcycle.

What could you have done to avoid this? What could *I* have done? Seriously? HE DOESN'T HAVE A FREAKIN LICENSE. What could *I* have done? HE TURNED OUT RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME, I SWERVED BUT STILL GOT CLIPPED. "What could *I* have done?

Clear as day, car driver is 100% at fault even if he DID have a license, which he didn't--and yes, I understand that fault doesn't much matter if you're being scraped off the pavement. I could have driven a car that day and maybe he woulda seen me. I coulda laid on the horn coming around the curve and he might have heard it. I could have not been out riding. I *could* have done a million things, in retrospect, but I'm not going to drive a car every day, I'm not going to stay home every day, and I'm not going to lay on the horn around every curve. I'm going to do what everyone does (or should do). Pay attention to what's around me, and do what I can to minimize my vulnerable times. But that's all I can do. If Johnny @$$hat who's only been driving two days has a car full of friends and is on the phone and decides to come screaming around a corner in my lane, or cut me off at the last second, or any other of a million possible actions resulting in much pain to my body, there's not much I can do other than swerve and pray.

Seriously, I understand the lesson being taught: a moment of attention can prevent a lifetime of rehabilitation. I just think that the method of instruction is horrible. You can't eliminate the risk, so please stop preaching at everyone like you can. You can minimize it, you can manage it, but you can't eliminate it. You don't just take your life in your hands when you fire up your bike, you entrust it to everyone else on the road. How much you trust them is larghely up to you and your riding style, but you still have to trust them to some extent. For every horror story of motorcycle tragedy, there's a million times where nothing happened. Nobody writes news articles about the people that make it safely to their destination--past a hundred intersection and a score of lights, surrounded by a thousand cars--they only write about the one motorcycle vs the one car at the one intersection.

Pay attention, be safe, be attentive--but also be willing to accept the risk that comes with being on any road at any time at any place. And please understand that everything isn't my fault, because trust me, if I had my way there'd be nothing but green lights with no traffic in sight.

In closing, I'd like to quote what I firmly hold to be true: Every time you make something fool-proof, someone else makes a better fool.

...and thus endeth the sermon.

Well, I'll give you one tip. People will always miss your loud pipes.

I don't think anyone here thinks they can eliminate the risk. But I fail to see the problem with analyzing an incident after it happened just to see if it could be avoided in the future. Maybe it will help maybe it won't. Sure doesn't hurt.

One of the things you must deal with posting on a forum with so many riding and safety instructors as members.....

Tough to complain about it because I'm sure it helps many people ride safer or at least think about what they are doing when riding. But it is a little like bench racing with your mother, isn't it?

Notice that several of us don't often mention much about any incidents we encounter when riding? Or discuss our rides much at all? If I put up the details of an average ride, this place would erupt.

And it would be hard for me to argue against most of what would be said. So I don't often bring up details of what I do out there. And why I don't ride in groups very often.... like ever. If I do ride with someone, it is someone I know well and rides the same way. I know I would not fit in with a large percentage of posters here on an average ride, and I'm O.K. with that. So I don't subject them to my exploits unless I want to raise a few hackles.....

I think the most important thing that you could take away from anyone analyzing what you or i do on the road is knowing that there is always room for improvement. You don't have to listen to the advice people give you, but occasionally if you pick up a tid-bit of information that helps you build your skills then its all worth it right? I totally agree that no rider will ever be able to eliminate the risk of riding no matter how much he practices, but that's what makes riding so interesting!

yeah, i'm not saying it's a bad thing to look back on any near misses, but i just think that the tone comes across very condescending/accusatory. i've also had some riders tell me that if a motorcyclist is ever in an accident, he did something wrong or it was his fault he was in it.

again, i understand the lesson completely and i whole-heartedly agree with it, i just think there's a better way to teach it.

jaskc78 wrote:yeah, i'm not saying it's a bad thing to look back on any near misses, but i just think that the tone comes across very condescending/accusatory. i've also had some riders tell me that if a motorcyclist is ever in an accident, he did something wrong or it was his fault he was in it.

again, i understand the lesson completely and i whole-heartedly agree with it, i just think there's a better way to teach it.

I don't always agree with the mentality that something could have been done to prevent every accident....case and point my dad's friend who had been riding bikes for over 30 years was killed by a drunk in a truck who came barreling out of the woods at 1 in the afternoon on a secondary hwy. No warning or anything and he was killed on the spot.

However i believe in 99% of accidents there could have been something done to prevent the accident, wether it was realistic or not is another story. Each accident has it's own individual circumstances, and thats why most accidents occur within the first few years of riding. Most newer riders don't have the experience to put theory to practice when a new situation comes across ( including myself ). That's why you go to riding schools to help build experience and learn how to ride safely and build your skills progressively.

I also agree that some people everywhere can come across condescending, thats why i choose to go to riding schools where there are professionals teaching me. If you have a problem with how something is being taught find a new source and keep going, i'm a member a few motorcycling sites which helps me bring lots of perspective on a particular issue.

It sounds like you're objecting more to the tone of the posts vs the content. I agree with you there - a lot of folks could use some work on having a neutral conversation without sounding like a dillhole - this forum has a few of those. I wouldn't let it rile you up though, anymore than you can get angry at every idiot on the road doing idiot things. You'll just give yourself high blood pressure. And yeah, don't respond to people on the interwebz if they're obnoxious. Unless you're having fun with them.

Amen! The way I look at life is that I can only be responsable for my actions. I do everything that I can do avoid putting myself into a situation that could result with me in pain....or worse. But life tends to throw you curve balls every now and then.....like the 16 year old kid in his new BMW 3 series doing 45 MPH in the Target parking lot, talking to his friends in the car, trying to adjust the radio, texting someone and drive, while barely being old enough to walk and chew gum just alone drive a car. But then I live in South Florida, and people who were raised down here live in their own strange and dememted world. (believe me, its like everyone is f***ked up on an acid and cocaine combo pack.....FUN!!) Sorry about the rant

I know some people on here kind of come off like your parents when they are asking you "what did you learrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrn?"

But really there is no community you are going to go to that will not give you some of that. The one thing I've learned is that if you're going to be on the interwebs you need to develop thick skin.