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I know this documentary has been around for awhile but i just finished watching it a few days ago. Has anyone seen this? I'm all for freedom of religion but this camp is getting a little extreme.

One of the points made in the movie is how impressionable youth are, and that islamic kids are getting ahead by being trained to strap c-4 to themselves in the name of islam. The head counsellor of the camp openly admits that she wishes her youth of Christian faith could have that kind of dedication to god. HOW are we getting ahead by telling kids they need to be warriors of god and be prepared to give their life in the name of jesus??

I realize that evangelical christians believe in creationism, however what i don't understand is how they can say that science doesn't prove anything when they are utilizing tools like microphones, computers, televisions and even electricity were founded by principles of science! Again i have nothing against people who have a deep belief in their faith but when they reject things like global warming, it just makes me shutter....


Anyways i just want to know what everyone thinks about this, i brought this up in my globalization class and it didn't get very far as it is a very ethnically mixed group of people.....

And if your an evangelical christian please inform me of your views as well, this movie has boggled my mind.

Link

http://www.tv-links.eu/movies/Jesus-Camp_4302

ahhh, i'll take a stab. it's only 2:45 am and i need to get up in a few hours. btw, this is long but it's hard to write a short, truthful, informative response to what you've raised.

first, let me say that i haven't seen the film. i can only guess on how the people in the film are portrayed. probably in a way that would make me not want to associate with them. and i'm not saying that they were portrayed poorly or wrongly. just guessing and saying.

i am a "conservative evangelical christian" although i hesitate to type those words out because they are so charged and mean so many things to different people.

i'm conservative in that i do take a pretty literal view of the bible. i believe it's a book that can be trusted. the amount of copies we have of the texts are astounding. the way it lines up with outside history of it's time is quite amazing. when the literary and historical tests we use on other historical works are put to the bible it hands down wins as a book that is preserved as originally written with no reason to doubt if we have what the original writers intended us to have or not. now we can have debate and doubt/faith over the story recorded in it. but that's a whole other issue

i very much believe in science. modern day science was started by christians trying to understand the world we live in. they believed that if God made it and is a God of order than it must be a place of order that can be understood. they were very much correct. sadly the church of the time wasn't always willing to accept what the scientist had found to be fact and labeled some of them as heretics. i think this has helped lead to a seemingly great divide where we have scientists on one side who look at all the facts and interpret the data with no bias... and all the brain-dead, faith-filled christians on the other side who can't think for themselves and won't accept truth if it were to bite them on the nose.

now i don't know what they mean by "don't believe in science" but there are plenty of people who are both christian and none that don't believe in evolution but believe that there must be some source/creator for the creation. these are real scientist who have looked at the same data and have come to a truly different conclusion. not people who dabble in it. if you'd like i can find resources for you.

and global warming... that's not a christian thing. there are many that have a problem with man-made global warming. for starters, it has cooled on the earth for the last 10 years. if you notice, no one uses the term global warming anymore because they can't and be truthful about it. it's now called climate change. you also have to deal with the fact that mars warmed up about the same time we did. it mars warmed because of our pollution then we have a serious problem... so serious that it's traveling through space and reaching other planets. there is also the question of what is the optimal temp for the earth. as a creationist i do believe in a relatively "young" earth (about 6-10 thousand years old). we've been keeping track of the temps for about 100 years. even if you go with my kookie theory of a young earth, that's still not a long time. now let's throw in the millions of years that evolutionist believe it's been around for. it's a drop in the bucket. so how can we be sure we know what the exact climate the earth should be? you also have to deal with the fact that the earth clearly has had climate shifts well before we had the ability to affect the climate (if we even can). the ice age for one. there are a whole list of things that suggest we had warmer times on this planet than we're having now and that none of it has to do with man. and it's not just kookie christians that believe that. there are plenty of scientist that read the data differently. again, i can get you evidence and writings on this subject as well.

not all of us who take these kinds of views are ignorant, blind followers who do no research. there is evidence out there for us kooks (btw, you have never once - that i know of - called me a kook. i'm inserting that word). and the evidence doesn't have to be twisted to fit our crazy worldview. very often your starting point determines your ending point.

example: if a scientist who is an atheist looks at something and says "i wonder how God made this and how it supports the truth of the bible?" and then sets out to do so, what has he stopped being? he has stopped being an atheist. an atheist will look at the evidence with a predetermined worldview and most likely make it fit. i don't fault him for that. just as i don't fault a scientist who is a christian and sees the same evidence and wonders how God made it and how it supports the truth of the bible.

also, the deal about c-4... it might not have been said well. and they might mean it completely different from how i would say it, but in general i do agree with the statement. keep in mind though that i in no way mean that in a suicide bomber way. nor am i a religious right-winger. i wish the church would get out of politics. i think it's one of our problems. we have no business legislating weather a gay couple can be married or not. the american people can make that choice, but the church shouldn't be so caught up in that. if we believe it's a wrong lifestyle then we need to live life with some of these people and earn the right to share with them why we think so. and if they're willing... the right to help them if they want it. i believe the same thing with abortion. sure i believe it's wrong. i'd be happy if it were made illegal, but i will not put my effort into changing the law. if the church gets the law past we haven't changed anyone's hearts. only the law. the same goes for the "liberal" wing of the church that uses government to help feed people and cloth them. the government isn't our solution. living out the good new is (btw, evangelism comes from a greek word that means good news. i'm all about spreading good news - hence calling myself an evangelical.)

but to go to that faith thing... children are very impressionable. that's why my wife and i work so hard at trying to teach our children solid values while they are young. that's why fascists regimes have worked so hard at teaching the youth and indoctrinating them. it's why some have a problem with things being taught to children without the other side being taught. you can change a civilization by reaching the youth. that's just fact. doesn't mean i try to brainwash the youth. but they are impressionable.

also, i wish christians would have a faith like some of the suicide bombers have. not the strap a bomb to themselves, but to actually trust God and live for him. to trust that he will meet their needs and be willing to live simply so they can give almost all they have away so that others can simply live. i wish they would have faith that this world is not our home and we don't need to stock up on new cars, nice houses and fancy cloths. that they'd have real faith to make a real difference in the world around them but volunteering in their local prison, helping a homeless man find a job and maybe giving him a place to stay while you help him get back on his feet. take an unwed mom into your home and either help her care for her child or adopt it rather than yell at her for being evil because she's getting an abortion. even if you think you don't have the money for all these things... have the faith to actually live like God wants us to.

sadly, i don't think many christians have a very serious faith. it's more of a philosophy they agree to because it's a get out of hell free card. and with that attitude, it's no wonder the church is a joke in many peoples minds.

well, it's now close to an hour later. i'm sorry for the length and if something i wrote doesn't make much since. i should have been in bed hours ago. please give me the benefit of the doubt. and i promise not to make another post on this board that is anywhere near this long. if you've read this go get some ice cream as a price. you've earned it.

look forward to hearing back from you. great question. hope others will chime in. even those that think i'm a kook.

I apologize for the delayed response, in the middle of mid-terms at the moment for 5 classes so i haven't had a whole heck of a lot of free time in the last couple of days.

First of all i would like to thank you dean owens for the complete and well thought-out response to my questions. I would also encourage you to watch the film, i don't think it really portrays any kind of negative light on evangelical christians. It may even give you a better idea of what im talking about.... its just an eye opener for me as i live in a fairly agnostic community and i haven't ever really been exposed to that type of thinking. Although having said that i do have relatives who are deeply involved in their church in Jacksonville Florida, and one of whom became a minister, so im not entirely oblivious to the christian faith.

I suppose i would like to point out my biggest frustration with any religion, not just christianity is that it is based around the idea that their communities have all the right answers to living the "good life." By "good life," I mean the standard of which those who consist of said community believe that they should be judging their own lives by. However what i don't like about the whole idea is that these beliefs of values seemed to be placed at a higher value that everyone else who is not involved with that faith. What makes their ideas so much better than the next?

I suppose that "global warming" was the wrong term to use when i first raised the issue. A better way of stating what i intended to convey was that the people involved in the film made it seem as if pollution was not bad for the world we live in. The message was that since the planet earth is not our permanent home, what we leave in our wake makes no difference to our existence. This i have a huge problem with because we are already seeing the effects of a society that over consumes everything.... especially north america, including canada ( i don't have a hate on for the states ). As we expand our cities we deplete resources like fresh water, oil, forests and the like. Don't get me wrong i don't believe that we would ever be able to halt our expansion at the flip of a switch but i do believe that we need to pay attention to how we are using the non-renewable resources given to us.

As for the whole creationism/evolution thing i don't know what to say. I find it hard to imagine i evolved from a chain of amino acids, which became a single celled organism, but i don't believe it is impossible. However i do believe that fossils prove that humans were not around as the same as dinosaurs. There a holes in both stories and i don't know enough about evolution or creationism to strike up an argument supporting either side.

When i aforementioned ethnocentric societies, i meant it to also tie into my next point, the freedom of choice. The right of exit exists in every culture, however the price to pay may be incredibly heavy. For example if you take a look at many christian churches they may force youths to be re-born by accepting jesus as their savior before they really have a chance to take a look at what other options they have to decide how to live their life. If they don't they face alienation from friends, family and their community. I do not believe that this is very different from an other culture, in fact most religions require something very similar from judaism and the bar mitzvah or bat mitzvah to my parents placing their values in me. Yet i do believe that it is far easier for me to pick what works best for me if i am given a variety of options, rather than being told what to do and how to do it from a singular source. My parents are both psychologists and live a very diverse life, that has rubbed off on me greatly.

Therefore i do believe that it is very important for religion to exist in our society to help produce guiding values. When you talked about having the faith to help those around you, such as helping a homeless man get a job, or volunteering at a prison i believe that these are all important values to be had in society, however what i see not only according to the film, but in day to day life is that if they are not of christian faith, jewish faith or sikh faith, they don't deserve this kind of treatment unless they believe.

I hope others do add to this conversation as well, this will make for a much better discussion. In no way do i want this to turn into a religion vs religion vs atheism vs everything else, i am just looking to gain perspective on a fairly controversial film.

…well, I have prayerfully considered your post for a few days trying to decide if and how to respond……there is absolutely no way to appropriately address your concerns in the limited scope of this forum, therefore what follows is a very poor attempt.

I am a Christian period. Do I succeed every day as a loving example of Christ’s Glory? No way. I’m human, complete with selfish sinful weakness disguised as self reliance, self worth and knowledge.

The camp you were concerned with has been closed for some time now. It was run by a group of Pentecostal believers, a rather extreme tangent of the Christian faith. (We don’t need to get into a debate here about which denomination is correct or better than another)The term Evangelical Christian actually applies to more than one denomination of Christianity. Evangelical means “to spread the Good News” and Christian “ to be Christ like”.

Religion does not save you. Religion, (for the sake of religion), is set of laws and traditions that most of the time provides us with a decent moral compass and feeling of belonging. Christianity is the only “religion” that requires no works or act on our part to be saved. It is a free gift of Grace from God with no strings attached. You have only to accept it! The power is His, not ours. As humans we have a hard time believing that. We are not good at submission or surrender. Mankind typically has an “I can do it” attitude. (Emphasis on I) A person can go to church once a week and be considered religious, but to be “Christian” is to have a living breathing relationship with Christ. That does not make us perfect or sinless. To be a warrior for Christ is to give your life to Christ and let Him live through you, to be a light to those around you.

I thank God for the blessing of free will, for without it we would be unable to choose or reject Him, we would be unable to share in the many exciting benefits of our existence, we would be unable to exercise our magnificent gift of a brain, explore His creation, (science included) or live the life He created for us!


You said,” However what i don't like about the whole idea is that these beliefs of values seemed to be placed at a higher value that everyone else who is not involved with that faith. What makes their ideas so much better than the next? “

I’m not really sure what you meant by this but being a Christian doesn’t make us better, just forgiven.

You said, “The message was that since the planet earth is not our permanent home, what we leave in our wake makes no difference to our existence.”

This is NOT the mainstream belief of the majority of Christians. Even those like me that believe climate change is a political fabrication, still use common sense in our daily choices and decision making. (read conservation)

Most churches do not “force” kids to accept Christ. I will allow that peer pressure exists everywhere and at every age and in every aspect of mankind’s life. Church, school, work place, and even family environment. Yours and mine included.
There is no getting around it.


Regarding volunteerism, you said,” however what i see not only according to the film, but in day to day life is that if they are not of christian faith, jewish faith or sikh faith, they don't deserve this kind of treatment unless they believe.” I don’t know what saddens me more…the fact that you believe this to be true or the possibility that it is true in the community in which you live. Of course we see and hear of the horrible things that man does to each other everyday, it’s one of the desperate examples of why we need the Grace of God. But to suggest that Christians withhold compassion and care to those that need it simply because they are not fellow believers goes against everything it means to be Christian. Perhaps I misunderstood you or you are painting with too broad a brush. By what are you basing this on? Have you volunteered in your community and spoken with people making these claims?

Anyway, enough for now. Take care and go ride your bike. I’m going to!!!!

I've tried several times to take a look at the film through your link and failed to access it, so can't speak to it directly, which is a pity. I'll have to confine myself to some general remarks instead.

I'm not a Christian. I decided religion was something of a nonsense at a fairly young age and abandoned it quite happily. England is a pretty non-religious place - perhaps it's the most non-religious nation on the planet.

American religious belief, and in particular, American fundamentalism is therefore something of a mystery to me.

dean owens wrote:
example: if a scientist who is an atheist looks at something and says "i wonder how God made this and how it supports the truth of the bible?" and then sets out to do so, what has he stopped being? he has stopped being an atheist.

He (or she?) has also stopped being a scientist. The scientist has only one way of testing a theory, and that is to try to disprove it. As soon as she directs her efforts to proving something, the Bible or anything else, she is no longer doing science. Although there is a level of conservatism about the scientific process, it is always ultimately open-ended, always ready to throw away what is no longer tenable and re-examine its interpretation of the data. The very opposite is true of religion. Trying to disprove the Bible is one thing I have never seen a Christian attempting. The attempt by scientists to disprove scientific theories occurs thousands of times every day.

I prefer to stick with a long-agreed truth. Religion (and Christianity in particular) is based on faith. That is its unique selling point and historically it has been its rationalisation. For those who are comfortable with faith, there is no need to look further. For those like me who are not, then no amount of biblical quotation or exegesis will suffice.

Of course there are Christians who are also scientists, but Christianity and science are separate world views. They have different modes of justification and only come together accidentally when adopted by one and the same person. They don't in any way depend on one another. There are scientists who are also Buddhists and Hindus, Jains, Zoroastrians, Bahais and Jews.

There is no reason why Christians should not personally view the discoveries of science as supporting their non-scientific world view. There may well be great satisfaction in this. I imagine there is. But 'supporting' is not the same as providing scientific evidence. It is just a kind of metaphorical pattern-making that we all indulge in. Science does not support any religion scientifically because it doesn't (and cannot) do it through a process of theory, hypothesis and disproof.

Mutual toleration and reasoned discussion are the only possibilities left open to us. I think people like Dawkins have caused a huge amount of damage by agressively stirring up an impossible argument and creating endless antagonisms - it's impossible because there is, in fact, no meeting point between science and religion, between material disproof and faith - so, the two sides just end up shouting over each other's shoulders. As a result of all this, religionists are pressured into trying to defend religion on pseudo-scientific grounds and mount ever more ridiculous attacks on science with poorly informed arguments. Where there are substantive points of difference (such as young earth creationists and geologists/evolutionists) the battleground then gets carried into the political arena.

As an anti-religious atheist, my critique of religion is political not scientific. If religion created no negative social consequences it wouldn't matter to me one little bit what it claimed or what its adherents believed. As I believe religion is socially destructive and intimately bound up with opressive power structures, I think it has to be challenged, but the bullish way Dawkins and others are going about it does no-one any good.

I would contest your statement, TW52, that religion is necessary to provide 'guiding values' to society. I see no evidence whatsoever that the many atheists or agnostics I know are any less sociable, loving or caring than any other section of the population. Nor do I think the British, who avoid the subject of religion like the plague and, in general, are little influenced by it, are less moral than any other nation. Sociability and mutual care are just human qualities that we are all born with.

I too get concerned whenever I hear the phrases like 'a Christian child' or 'a Muslim child'. Small children do not have any concept of the complex religious doctrines behind these faiths. It is just a label that is imposed upon them. It is natural, of course, that parents who are deeply committed to a faith and believe that it is the fundamental truth about their world, should want to pass their own ideologies on to their children. But that just demonstrates what worries me about religious belief - the depth of conviction religious people have (or at least the depth of assertion) that their own religion possesses a unique and absolute truth that makes all other religions erroneous. This seems to me most dangerous in a world in which nothing is absoltutely certain and we all have to get along with one another.

dean owens wrote:even those that think i'm a kook.



Not a kook...just a different view point.

as a creationist i do believe in a relatively "young" earth (about 6-10 thousand years old).

then how do you explain dinosaurs from a millon years ago?
or cave men?

Here is an interesting site.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/index.html

SV-Wolf, if you want to watch the movie the link should take you to the home page.

Click on the "J" section and look for Jesus camp 2006.

also, i wish christians would have a faith like some of the suicide bombers have. not the strap a bomb to themselves, but to actually trust God and live for him. to trust that he will meet their needs and be willing to live simply so they can give almost all they have away so that others can simply live.

That's a concerning point of view, dean. Do not combine suicide bombing mentality with a trust that God will meet their needs. It is that combination that has enabled most of the tragedies of religions across history. It is tricky indeed to find the path between "Faith without works is dead" and "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and render unto God what is God's."

I like your point about keeping religion out of politics, but you see, combining an admiration of faith with an act of political manipulation is exactly what you are doing in that quote. Love the faith but not the act that it motivates? Using faith to motivate political ends? As I write this, it strikes me that the phrase "using faith" is key.

Oh, it gets very murky indeed to try to tease out these differences . . .

Theweapon52 wrote:SV-Wolf, if you want to watch the movie the link should take you to the home page.

Click on the "J" section and look for Jesus camp 2006.

Thanks TW

I've got past that, but to download the film, the damn thing wants me to sign up to usenet and I'm not sure I want to do that.

Cheers

sv-wolf wrote:

Theweapon52 wrote:SV-Wolf, if you want to watch the movie the link should take you to the home page.

Click on the "J" section and look for Jesus camp 2006.

Thanks TW

I've got past that, but to download the film, the damn thing wants me to sign up to usenet and I'm not sure I want to do that.

Cheers

huh, never asked me to do that. if you do ever find a link that works i would highly recommend watching the movie.