Questions after first day of MSF

[aireq]

So I had my first day of riding, but have a couple questions now. Here's a copy of an email I just sent to one of my instructors:


First when approaching a turn is it better to slow using the front and rear, or only the rear break. I found myself using the front break to much and forgetting about the rear, which messed with me in the turns because I would take my hand off the throttle right before entering the turn to break. Thus it would take me a second to get back on the throttle to roll it through the turn. So it seems to me that if you just want to slow down a bit, but not fast or to a full stop it's better to keep your hand on the throttle for control and only use the rear break. Is this right? I was a bit confused because you mentioned that it's best to break with both breaks at all times so that it becomes habit.

My second question is regarding the pushing part of "slow, look, push, roll". Say you are beginning a left turn, and thus begin the turn by pushing your left hand to the left. Is the point of this to force yourself to counter steer so that bike tips to the left, after which you turn the bars to the left to make the actual turn. Thus you are only suppose to "push" at the beginning of the turn to initiate it? Today I kept thinking that you are suppose to "push" through the entire turn, which didn't make sense to me because pushing your left hand out turns the bars right which makes it very difficult to turn left.


Also the "roll" part means roll on the throttle correct? Does it mean keep the throttle steady, or accelerate slightly through the turn? Or do you accelerate a bit at the beginning of the turn to compress the rear suspension but keep it steady after that?


Eric

[DustyJacket]

Break before you enter the turn, using BOTH brakes. Except for special circumstances, use BOTH brakes when braking. You slow to the point where the turn is safe and it accounts for you later acceleration. In my case, I tend to slow about 5mph under the speed limit, then the later acceleration has me exiting the turn at the speed limit. (more or less)

Let off the brake.

Push the grip on the side you want to turn to (push left, lean left go left). That is countersteering, which you only do at (about) 10 MPH and above. You don't turn the wheel in the direction you want to go. By leaning left, the bike will turn to the left without actually turning the wheenl to pont to the left. How much you push, and for how long in the turn you push, really depends on the bike. Some need more push than others; some less. You don't really push very much. It comes out to maybe an inch or less. Push like you are trying to push the handgrip towars the front axel. It really is very easy. They'll have you do slaloms on the cones before countersteering in curves.

As you start the turn (lean) accelerate very lightly to stabilize the bike.

There are other aspects to curves, like choosing your "line" and delayed apexing, etc.

Don't try over thinking this. I don't know how many more classes you have but you might be trying to jump too far ahead.

You can also read some of David Hough's "Proficient Motorcycling" books, or "The Complete Idiot's Gide to Motorcycling". I read them all a year before I took my class, and again right before I took my class.

Also, there are tutorials here on the TMS web site you should look through.

[stock28]

Always use both brakes. Try to think of using the front and rear brakes as one action and it will be second nature. Don't try to overthink the counter steering too much. It will pretty much come natural after you practice it a bit. The second day of my class was when we really got into cornering and you will practice it a great deal before you are done.

[Psycluded]

First when approaching a turn is it better to slow using the front and rear, or only the rear break. I found myself using the front break to much and forgetting about the rear, which messed with me in the turns because I would take my hand off the throttle right before entering the turn to break. Thus it would take me a second to get back on the throttle to roll it through the turn. So it seems to me that if you just want to slow down a bit, but not fast or to a full stop it's better to keep your hand on the throttle for control and only use the rear break. Is this right? I was a bit confused because you mentioned that it's best to break with both breaks at all times so that it becomes habit.

Ok, this is speaking from strictly a sportsbike rider's perspective. I use all SORTS of braking before and even IN turns occasionally.

Most commonly I will use engine braking down to 2nd gear/30mph while flashing my brake light using the back brake, then apply front brake to come to a complete stop. For turns I do the same, but simply never come to a halt, just power through the turn.

One thing I do have a problem with the MSF on is this: On a sportsbike, in a hard turn, you NEVER want to use the back brake to slow down. In turns especially near the entrance of the turn, the weight is shifted forwards. Even a tiny amount of pressure on the back brake can cause it to break loose and cause a lowside. Believe it or not, if I'm going into curves -really- hot, I will use the front brake all the way to the apex, then gently roll onto the throttle. Doing this means I have to countersteer a lot more to counteract the front brake's tendency to want to stand the bike up, but it CAN be done safely, and is in fact proper track riding technique...

My second question is regarding the pushing part of "slow, look, push, roll". Say you are beginning a left turn, and thus begin the turn by pushing your left hand to the left. Is the point of this to force yourself to counter steer so that bike tips to the left, after which you turn the bars to the left to make the actual turn. Thus you are only suppose to "push" at the beginning of the turn to initiate it? Today I kept thinking that you are suppose to "push" through the entire turn, which didn't make sense to me because pushing your left hand out turns the bars right which makes it very difficult to turn left.

Countersteering is an integral part of turning at any kind of speed. You will find that trying to turn the bars in the direction of the turn at ANY point in a curve will just stand you up and steer you in the opposite direction, usually towards a curb! So, trust the instructors on this one, push the direction you want to go. On the track, most riders will actually use this principle to "flick" the bike over into turns. Press the bike down into the turn, then pull the bar (and add power) to bring the bike right back up!

Also the "roll" part means roll on the throttle correct? Does it mean keep the throttle steady, or accelerate slightly through the turn? Or do you accelerate a bit at the beginning of the turn to compress the rear suspension but keep it steady after that?

Read "Proficient Motorcycling", like someone above suggested. When you turn, the contact patch on the tires gets smaller in radius, so to avoid DEcelerating in the turn, you have to roll on the throttle a little, but do so GENTLY. Suggestion: feather the clutch while you roll on the throttle, and think about how much power you want transferred to the back wheel. Power on the back wheel does two things. First, it keeps you stable; secondly, it will slightly stand the bike up (not as fast as countersteering would), so you'll need to KEEP PRESSING on the bar to keep yourself in the lean.


Trust your instructors. They know what they're talking about. Ignore my complaint about braking, you won't need to worry about it unless you're really cooking along some twisties or on a track.

[aireq]

Break before you enter the turn, using BOTH brakes. Except for special circumstances, use BOTH brakes when braking. You slow to the point where the turn is safe and it accounts for you later acceleration. In my case, I tend to slow about 5mph under the speed limit, then the later acceleration has me exiting the turn at the speed limit. (more or less)

Ok here's what confused me during the curves part of the class. My instructor said I was suppose to use both breaks before entering the turn, but that I was not suppose to use the clutch. I couldn't get the hang of this because in order to use the front break you have to let go of the throttle, which results in the engine breaking? Is this right? I was having a hard time with it because I didn't have a very steady control of the throttle so breaking with the engine was a lot less predictable then breaking with the front and rear breaks with the clutch disengaged.

Let off the brake.

Push the grip on the side you want to turn to (push left, lean left go left). That is counter steering, which you only do at (about) 10 MPH and above. You don't turn the wheel in the direction you want to go. By leaning left, the bike will turn to the left without actually turning the wheel to point to the left. How much you push, and for how long in the turn you push, really depends on the bike. Some need more push than others; some less. You don't really push very much. It comes out to maybe an inch or less. Push like you are trying to push the handgrip towars the front axel. It really is very easy. They'll have you do slaloms on the cones before countersteering in curves.

As you start the turn (lean) accelerate very lightly to stabilize the bike.

There are other aspects to curves, like choosing your "line" and delayed apexing, etc.

Don't try over thinking this. I don't know how many more classes you have but you might be trying to jump too far ahead.

Yeah I just don't get the push thing at all. I understand the concept of it and how it should invoke counter steering. But I never seemed to have a problem with steering where I needed to force myself to consciously "push". I don't know. Maybe I'm just a natural.

One question I had about turning that wasn't entirely clear to me. What should the position of your upper body be while turning. I get that if you are making a very slow tight turn you counter weight to the outside. Otherwise do you always align your body with the vertical axis of the bike, or in something like slalom turns is it better to keep your body vertical and let the bike lean under you?

[aireq]

Ok here's a better way of asking this. How can you tell if you are not countersteering, or "pushing" correctly?

[Psycluded]

Ok here's a better way of asking this. How can you tell if you are not countersteering, or "pushing" correctly?

You won't turn.


Seriously, at speeds 30mph and higher, countersteering is absolutely integral to turning. A lot of people swear they aren't doing it, that they're "just leaning", but they are. In order to actually lean the bike, you HAVE to countersteer.

If you think about the physics, it makes perfect sense. When you turn the front wheel, the bike's kinetic energy is focused forward, not in the direction you turned the front wheel. So, the bike leans over on the opposite side, because thats where your energy is all going. Also a part of it, as you lean, the contact patch on the tires gets smaller and smaller on that side, causing you to turn!

There's a great set of articles over at http://www.msgroup.org/DISCUSS.asp on the subject.

[DustyJacket]

Ok here's a better way of asking this. How can you tell if you are not countersteering, or "pushing" correctly?

Wait for the class, and try it out.
You are way over-thinking this.

It is nearly instinctual, and cannot really be duplicated on a bicycle to try it out.


Wait, and learn....

[aireq]

Ok here's a better way of asking this. How can you tell if you are not countersteering, or "pushing" correctly?

Wait for the class, and try it out.
You are way over-thinking this.

It is nearly instinctual, and cannot really be duplicated on a bicycle to try it out.


Wait, and learn....

Well if you read the subject of my post you would have seen that I had already finished a day of the ridding practice when I made the original post, but now have finished the class (passed of course).

It really just seem like it's instinctual, at least I never had a problem with leaning or turning. Coordinating my hands and feet to shift and break properly was WAY more difficult. I was mostly just confused because there are a ton of posts on forumns and articals online that seem to describe the "push" to initiate a turn as some kind of technique that must be mastered. Obviously you can get better at it, but it's not like anyone is ever so bad that they can't figure out how to turn at all.


Eric

[DustyJacket]

I did read your original post and knew you had 1-day of the class.
I must have missed where you said you had your second. (I didn't know if the riding was Sat/Sun like most, or spread out over weekends.)

If you still have questions, read "Proficient Motorcycling" and "More proficient Motorcycling" - they will answer these questions and more, as well as teach you what to look for to save your life.

I read them both, twice, and The Complete Idiot's Guide to Motorcycling", and "Street Strategies." All before I took my class, and all good stuff.