Please reconsider recommendations

[Scott58]

I posted this at another site and thought I'd post it here also.

I won't recommend anything more then a 250cc for a starter bike anymore. I don't know about the rest of you but i'm really tired of hearing about all the people dieing in their first season of riding. There was another woman in the paper this morning. Been riding 3 months and killed on her harley (it didn't specifiy what kind) It did say she was wearing a helmet (but again no idea what kind). Who in their right mind would suggest a harley or a sportbike over 30hp to a new rider? People please, we can't talk about being bored on a bike and a new rider at the same time. Some of these people are being killed. We can talk about gear all day long, but the truth is gear doesn't make you a better rider and if you aren't learning on a motorcycle you can manage all the gear in the world isn't going to help you. No Gs500, no ninja 500, no 650's. These aren't starter bikes these are full blown motorcycles that can do 1/4 mile times in less then 14 seconds. The number 1 priority in my opinion for a new rider is to actually learn how to ride. We need to rethink our recommendations, to do anything else means certain death for a percentage of the motorcycle population. I'm not comfortable with that and I'm sure most of the rest of you aren't either. Motorcycleing isn't about the kind of bike you have. It's about the open road and enjoying the freedom 2 wheels affords us. Learning to ride safely and reducing our risks carrys with it rewards that far exceed the flashy 12 second bike of our dreams. There will be time for that in the future and the fact that someone learned how to ride first will make that dream alot more pleasurable when it does happen. So please lets geardown on the 50 to 60 hp stuff. They really aren't beginner bikes and the life we save may be that newbie who reads our posts yesterday today or tomorrow.

[ZooTech]

Suggestion #1 - Stop taking it upon yourself to educate and save the world.

Suggestion #2 - Keep in mind that some people have no business on a motorcycle of any size, and there is no safe recommendation that will prevent them from killing themselves.

The number of ways we pay for our freedoms is endless. Sometimes we are granted the freedom to own a motorcycle and a deer jumps out in front of us and takes our life. C'est la vie.

[LJTurtle]

I think this advice is a little misplaced. So many people on this board make such a huge deal about recommending 250's to new riders as the best way to keep yourself out of trouble.

I believe the bottom line is respect. If you can respect your own limitations and the power of your motorcycle, you can ride bigger and more powerful bikes. Just because a reckless speedfreak can get in trouble more easily on a liter bike doesn't mean the same rider wouldn't make stupid decisions on a Ninja 250.



~LJ

[Jamers!]

No Gs500, no ninja 500, no 650's. These aren't starter bikes these are full blown motorcycles that can do 1/4 mile times in less then 14 seconds.

So the 2006 EX250s 14.6 sec 1/4 mile is ok though? And what is the 250 then not a motorcycle? I started on a 500 and i loved it, and i think people can start on a wide range of bikes, might i say that its easyer to learn how to ride on a smaller bike such as a 500 or 250, yes. Are 250s the only bikes one can learn on. . . no.


2006-Ninja 250

0-60 mph (0-100 km/h) 5.75 s
1/4 mile 14.6 s @ 88 mph
Maximum speed 105 mph (160 km/h)
Max power 36 hp (27 kW) @ 11000 rpm, 26 hp (19 kW) @ rear wheel

Who in their right mind would suggest a harley or a sportbike over 30hp to a new rider?

Apparently you would, cause the 250 has 36

That is still very very fast, maybe not compared to other bikes, but in general a 5.75 0-60 and a 14.6 1/4 are not slow speeds. While its a slow bike compared to a gixxer or a r1 its not that these bikes are slow and boreing and easy to ride. People can screw themselfs up riding these bikes just as they can riding other bikes, as Zoo said, some people just shouldnt be on a bike period, because some people cant handle what a 250 throws out in terms of power and some people simply cant ride, doesnt matter what bike. So to say that a 250 is the only learning bike one should buy is a dumb statement.

Just to compare, here are the stats for the ninja 500:

# Standing start ¼ mile: 12.73 s @ 102 mph
# Acceleration, 0-60 mph: 3.76 s
# Acceleration, 45-70 mph, top gears: (4) 4.08 s, 343 ft. (5) 5.92 s, 492 ft.(6) 6.62 sec., 589 ft.

not all the much faster, if you are riding a bike to go fast and be reckless then it doesnt matter what kind of bike you get, thats what im trying to say, so if someone is safe about they can start on a 500 or a 650 or even bigger.


JWF[/quote]

[M109R]

When I started my MSF class both instructors repeatedly stated that the Buell 450 we would be riding on would be the hardest bike we would ever ride and that if we could ride that we could ride most anything.

I didn't believe them at the time but when I took my Suz M109 out for the first time I couldn't believe how much easier it was to ride than the Buell 450. It was better balanced and handled better on curves, etc... I felt much more confident on the bigger bike.

I've had some of my worst wrecks on bikes 250cc and under going at low speeds. Why, because the bikes are unstable do to their light weight and higher center of gravity. They are harder to ride than the heavier bikes. Sure, you could make the point that learning on a harder to ride bike first will make you better on the easier to ride bike but why learn how to ride something well just to sell it and relearn on something else.

I think that the point that needs to be made to beginners is that if you are going to ride stupid (not take an MSF riding class, not respect the power of your bike and your riding skills, take time to learn your bike, etc..) DON"T RIDE AT ALL. You can kill yourself on any size bike.

Just like in any sport or machine (skiing, rock climbing, car, boat, plane, etc..,) I do believe that there are some bikes out there that were designed and made for a certain kind of rider with a certain skill level. It's your responsibility to gain the proper knowledge and information on which bikes these are. But ultimately it's your responsibilty to choose the best bike that is honestly right for you. Not your friend, brother, husband, etc... Go to the dealerships and sit on as many bikes as you can, read the reviews, talk to people who ride one. Educate yourself and ride smart....

If you take the time, you'll know what bike is best for you...

[dieziege]

This has been hashed and rehashed around here over and over again.

It can be argued that a lowest-common-denominator approach to advice doesn't take into account different physical and mental abilities... that a ditzy high school kid probably won't be safe on any bike and a millionaire or pro athlete will be perfectly fine on a Hayabusa... and that's true to an extent... there are wide differences in human ability. The problem is, how do you know an individual's abilities in this area except by testing them? And how do you test them except by giving the person a motorcycle and seeing whether they can ride it? A slightly bigger problem is What are the consequences of failing the test? We could argue about ethical responsibility and darwinian selection and all sorts of other things and never come to the end of that.

So you turn the question around and ask yourself What first bike will best allow them to learn the habits and skills needed to ride other bikes in a fun and safe manner? In other words, what will assist their development as a rider. Death halts progress so avoiding death is part of the criteria, but more important is standard and predictable controls (rules out highly-tuned two-strokes, bikes with funky transmissions, sidecars, two-up riding, etc), manageable weight, size, and power (rules out 800lb touring bikes, 42" saddle height dual sports, 1000cc sport bikes, etc)... and an ability to push it without going so far beyond normal limits that you probably won't survive momentarily pushing too hard (rules out a lot of very nice bikes simply because they are "too good").

I can think of many cases... including when I purchased boats, telescopes, and all sorts of other stuff... where I really should have bought the small "trainer" version but instead I bought the big nice "what I'll want in two or three years" model instead... and then I found out that a big sailboat isn't so hot for just going for a quick sail every afternoon, a big telescope isn't so hot for just grabbing a quick look at the stars on a clear night... and I wound up either buying, or wishing for, the lighter more beginner friendly products. Or I end up not being as good a sailor as the guy who did start on the 14' dinghy.... I see the same thing happening with motorcycles.

So, my advice is to forget about trying to protect the world... and forget about trying to protect the ego and image of the people asking for advice, and give advice based on what will offer them the best introduction to motorcycling...and impart the best long-term habits and patterns... even if it means they'll be upgrading in 6 months....or that they'll give up and buy a mustang for that mater.

[jmillheiser]

I started on a 500 that had about 50hp, and never had any problems. The power level was perfectly manageable. a bike with peaky power delivery will get a newb into trouble faster than a bike with nice flat power delivery.

if a person is going to be wreckless they will be that way on ANY size bike.

I rode a nearly 500lb honda CX500 for 5 months and then stepped up to a bandit 600 which has over 80hp and is still north of 400lbs. The bandit wouldn't be terrible for a beginner, its not terribly peaky for a 4 cylinder and is easier to handle at low speed than my CX500 was.

The SV650 shares nearly all the bandits handling qualities with an even smoother engine and makes an excellent first sportbike for someone who is not going to be wreckless.

[dieziege]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that a smaller bike will prevent reckless behavior...

It's a variation on the "riding your own ride" thing... how many stories have you read where people got into trouble because they were in a group that they may never have had riding alone? I've read and heard a lot of them. Stories of whole lines of riders riding off the road in a curve because the first guy was setting the pace and set it too high... of the guy with his month-old 600rr wadding on a freeway trying to keep up with his squid buds doing 140... of the lady on a cruiserbike going along in the middle of a a group and drifting into oncoming traffic in a turn because the pace wasn't what she was familiar with... or the guy out riding with his buds zooming through a left turn at an intersection and smacking a car 'cause he didn't want to be the only one left waiting at a light.... I've seen a LOT of those stories...

Truth be told, if your bike can't do it, you won't be lured into doing it. If your bike can't join in the 140MPH race down the interstate with your buds, you'll either meet your buds at the end of the ride or choose new buds. Some people need that sort of restraint. I've heard people say that the reason they have a 250 is that it keeps them from blasting along at 125+ all the time and they know they would if they could.


Frankly, I think the push to recommend larger bikes for beginners does people a disservice in another way. It's like robing a kid of their childhood... yeah, the kid grows up faster and can enjoy more adult entertainments sooner and perhaps longer but you've also taken away their chance to enjoy simpler pleasures. You've taken away some of the first bike thrill and replaced it with fear and intimidation... and you've taken away the second bike thrill... and perhaps even the third bike thrill... and you've taken away the reminiscences about the little 125 they had when they were young. Next thing you know you've got the biker equivalent of Michael Jackson.... and that's not a happy outcome.

That's something I'm glad I avoided by not listening to most of the advice I got about my bike. I started out asking about 250s and as I recall three people said they'd be fine... everyone else (perhaps 12 people) suggested 650s and 500s and even larger bikes up to 1100... well I bought the 250 and I'm extremely happy with it... and not only that I'm sure I'll enjoy my next bike and its new capabilities and be able to go through a second "upgrade rush" I would've missed out on if I'd started on a 650.

[m1a1dvr]

I think that the smaller cc bikes like the 250 would inspire confidence alot quicker than a bigger bike. But the downside to that is that if a kid starts feeling confident then he will start to get froggy with it. Then it does not matter what size the engine is. The bike will get him into trouble. I was always told that anybody can make a bike go fast in a streight line. It is when they get into a corner that they will get into trouble. And I have to agree.

[VermilionX]

yeah, anybody can go fast in a straight.

but it's takes a lot of skill to pin the throttle on a take off and still keep the front down while accelerating and pushing each gear to its limit in the shortest amount of time.