Please reconsider recommendations

Message
Author
black mariah
Legendary
Legendary
Posts: 291
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:45 pm
Sex: Male
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

#41 Unread post by black mariah »

Kal wrote: I used to talk about my CeeGee but got laughed at because its a 125cc... She was a fantastic bike, forgiving to ride and work on. I have come to accept that America may never understand the beauty that is wrapped up inside a 125cc's frame and so tend to recomend 250-500cc as the best learning zone.
Because for the majority of America, 125cc's simply isn't enough. Most jurisdictions don't even allow bikes that small on the freeway and, especially here in Texas, freeway is the majority of your travel if you're going more than about 5 miles.

Personally I'd love to build up a 125cc cafe racer like this one here: http://www.caferacer.net/images/hcostelloCB125_1.jpg :mrgreen:
User avatar
jstark47
Site Supporter - Silver
Site Supporter - Silver
Posts: 3538
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:58 pm
Sex: Male
Years Riding: 16
My Motorcycle: '12 Tiger 800, '03 Trophy 1200
Location: Lumberton, NJ

#42 Unread post by jstark47 »

black mariah wrote:
Kal wrote: I used to talk about my CeeGee but got laughed at because its a 125cc... She was a fantastic bike, forgiving to ride and work on. I have come to accept that America may never understand the beauty that is wrapped up inside a 125cc's frame and so tend to recomend 250-500cc as the best learning zone.
Because for the majority of America, 125cc's simply isn't enough. Most jurisdictions don't even allow bikes that small on the freeway and, especially here in Texas, freeway is the majority of your travel if you're going more than about 5 miles.
Hey, Kal, you do know that there's very few 125cc street bikes sold in the USA, right? Kawasaki Eliminator is the only model from the major companies. DERBI, Hyosung, and MZ also have models, but those companies do not have a significant presence here. Americans can only buy what's for sale.

Black Mariah is right about freeways. I ride one to work, if you can't cruise at least 75 mph (120 kmh) you'll have tire tracks up and down your back!
2003 Triumph Trophy 1200
2009 BMW F650GS (wife's)
2012 Triumph Tiger 800
2018 Yamaha XT250 (wife's)
2013 Kawasaki KLX250S
User avatar
Dragonhawk
Legendary 500
Legendary 500
Posts: 501
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:30 am
Sex: Male
Location: Los Angeles

Re: Please reconsider recommendations

#43 Unread post by Dragonhawk »

Scott58 wrote:I posted this at another site and thought I'd post it here also.

I won't recommend anything more then a 250cc for a starter bike anymore. I don't know about the rest of you but i'm really tired of hearing about all the people dieing in their first season of riding. There was another woman in the paper this morning. Been riding 3 months and killed on her harley (it didn't specifiy what kind) It did say she was wearing a helmet (but again no idea what kind). Who in their right mind would suggest a harley or a sportbike over 30hp to a new rider? People please, we can't talk about being bored on a bike and a new rider at the same time. Some of these people are being killed. We can talk about gear all day long, but the truth is gear doesn't make you a better rider and if you aren't learning on a motorcycle you can manage all the gear in the world isn't going to help you. No Gs500, no ninja 500, no 650's. These aren't starter bikes these are full blown motorcycles that can do 1/4 mile times in less then 14 seconds. The number 1 priority in my opinion for a new rider is to actually learn how to ride. We need to rethink our recommendations, to do anything else means certain death for a percentage of the motorcycle population. I'm not comfortable with that and I'm sure most of the rest of you aren't either. Motorcycleing isn't about the kind of bike you have. It's about the open road and enjoying the freedom 2 wheels affords us. Learning to ride safely and reducing our risks carrys with it rewards that far exceed the flashy 12 second bike of our dreams. There will be time for that in the future and the fact that someone learned how to ride first will make that dream alot more pleasurable when it does happen. So please lets geardown on the 50 to 60 hp stuff. They really aren't beginner bikes and the life we save may be that newbie who reads our posts yesterday today or tomorrow.
I agree with you 1000%.

However, we also need to consider what is practial.

The truth of the matter is, people truly are ignorant and stubborn and Darwinism is a VERY real thing.

Ever read The Catcher In The Rye? That is you. You are being like Holden Caulfield. You are standing above the rye as the kids play next to the cliff and you want to protect them and catch them all and save them from falling into oblivion. That is a noble gesture. But you will never succeed in saving all the children. And while you save one and shout at the others to be careful, they will mock you, and run away, and fall off the edge.

My point is, you are right and your desires are respectable.

But people will never listen.

Naturally, that doesn't mean you shouldn't try. I just hate to see noble ambitions riddiculed by the ungrateful brats you are only trying to protect.
[b]Are you a beginner rider?
Have a lot of questions about motorcycling?
Not sure what bike to start with?
[url=http://www.wyndfeather.com/learn/motorcycle.htm]Learn To Ride A Motorcycle - A Step-By-Step Guide[/url][/b]
User avatar
Andrew
Legendary 500
Legendary 500
Posts: 521
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 11:53 am
Sex: Male
Location: San Antonio, TX

#44 Unread post by Andrew »

jstark47 wrote: Black Mariah is right about freeways. I ride one to work, if you can't cruise at least 75 mph (120 kmh) you'll have tire tracks up and down your back!
I can't even go fill my tank without getting on an interstate traveling at 75 mph and over, and you have to be at highway speed before merging. People will not get over to create room. Not sure that I would be comfortable trying that on a small bike.
2004 BMW K1200RS
[img]http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/images/smilies/BMWsmile.gif[/img]
black mariah
Legendary
Legendary
Posts: 291
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:45 pm
Sex: Male
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

#45 Unread post by black mariah »

Andrew78108 wrote:I can't even go fill my tank without getting on an interstate traveling at 75 mph and over, and you have to be at highway speed before merging. People will not get over to create room. Not sure that I would be comfortable trying that on a small bike.
Yeh. If I was still in Portland I'd jump at something in that displacement range. Small urban areas are good for that type of thing. Urban sprawl like we have in DFW is anathema to small displacements. :?
User avatar
M109R
Legendary
Legendary
Posts: 289
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 8:22 am
Sex: Male
Location: CO

Scooter

#46 Unread post by M109R »

If you are going for a lame 125, get a scooter instead. More comfortable and go faster in traffic. Seeing tons of these out where I live for the below squid riders out there.

Some of these guys ride them in the bike lane at 5mph. BELONG ON A MOTORIZED BICYCLE or an old moped.....
06 Suzuki Boulevard M109R
User avatar
dieziege
Legendary 1000
Legendary 1000
Posts: 1351
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:49 am

#47 Unread post by dieziege »

The question really comes down to "how small is too small?"

Some people think a 125cc limit is reasonable because it keeps inexperienced riders off of interstates/freeways where things move too fast and a small accident is likely to result in a major catastrophe. Personally, I think freeways are the safest place for anyone to be most of the time so I don't agree that newbs should be kept off freeways.

Some people think you need to be able to go 0-60 in 4 seconds to merge onto a freeway safely... I've never found that to be the case. I'm a fast/aggressive merger and 8 seconds is usually plenty.

I think that beginner bikes should be capable all around... they should allow the rider to explore different types of riding... aggressive canyon riding, touring, commuting, cruising, ideally even dirt roads and the like... until you've tried it you really don't know which type will be the most fun.

They should also be well mannered... keep the traps for the unwary in the engine, suspension, and the like to a minimum. Not because they can't handle those traps, but because they may not be able to handle a killer throttle and a weird road surface and a cell-obsessed cager all at once.

They should also be practical. That means you can use it to run errands, to get to work, to go to the park on a weekend, to cruise around on... because too many "bikers" only ever ride to bike nights and bars, and they never develop much real-world riding experience. Doing something every day allows you to learn *much* faster than doing it even once a week.

Finally they should be cheap... because frankly a lot of people ride less that 1000 miles total in their lives.... you see it around here... a few months ago someone was posting about how they bought a brand new gs500f and had taught themselves to ride in only a couple hours with no training...and a few weeks ago that same bike appeared in the for sale section w/ 700 miles on it. "Helmet included if you want it."


I've pretty much given up on trying to explain the safety difference... yes, some bikes are more dangerous... but you aren't going to reach all that many people by telling them that a <whatever> is too dangerous for them. You may reach them by telling them it costs too much to insure... people are more constrained by their pocketbook than their bone denisty.. but that doesn't always work. I was sitting in a fast food place the other day listening to two of the employees talking... apparently one of them had just bought a car, and they were discussing insurance... "only $400 per month!" I almost soiled myself... but they were really pleased that with their tickets and accidents or whatever it was only five thousand a year to insure a car. :frusty:

There is another issue that I think is probably even more important... but much harder to express to people or convince them new riders how important it is...or even how to select a bike based that is "good" in this way. That's the idea that the bike you start with will establish habits and patterns for you that will be extremely difficult to break later on, so you want a bike that encourages good habits. If you have a bike that accelerates better than it turns or stops, you are a lot more likely to view the throttle as your "accident avoidance control"... and that's extremely dangerous. If when you really hit the front brake the nose dives and at that point will skid the rear wheel if you even brush against the rear brake pedal, it will change how you hit the brakes on panic stops... and perhaps not in a good way. The much-recommended ninja250 does that... I can't tell you how often I've locked the rear wheel just by increasing pressure on the front brakes without adding more rear brake at all. The rear brake is mostly good for trail braking on curves, not for helping stop the bike more quickly.

Confidence, especially in real-time dynamic activities like riding and flying, is an absolute essential. There are times when the only way out of a situation is to do something risky, and do it NOW ... in riding it might be pushing a little deeper into the curve... in flying it might be pointing the nose further toward the ground... in any case you must have the confidence and control to do it even though though it takes guts. A newb bike should give that confidence... even though there is a chance that it will cause brash risk-taking. Brash risk taking is probably less risky than someone not thinking they can make a curve they are committed to making and causing a panic-induced highside.

More than arbitrary HP limits that riders will ignore with a blithe, "I'm an above-average driver, I can handle above average power," we should try to steer people towards bikes that will make them good, safe, and confident riders as quickly as possible.... and show them the broadest range of riding types possible... so that they can have fun, be safe, learn well, and actually benefit from riding for years to come.

I just have no clue what bikes would do that... so I'll probably keep recommending the ninja250.
Ride it like you think owning it matters.
User avatar
biker_1706
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:08 am
Sex: Male
Location: St. Thomas, On, Canada

#48 Unread post by biker_1706 »

I believe that there is a range of bikes that people can start on. I started on a 400cc Honda and really enjoyed it but I would never tell somebody to start their first ride on a Harley. I think that it depends on the person what size they should start on. Personnally I wouldn't recomend anything bigger than a 750 to climb on and ride for the very first time ever riding. If the person starts and becomes very comfortable quickly then they could upgrade. I think it really comes down to the person and the way they ride that decides what they should start on.

Anyways Keep on Ridin And be Safe
black mariah
Legendary
Legendary
Posts: 291
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:45 pm
Sex: Male
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

#49 Unread post by black mariah »

I'd recommend whatever doesn't scare the "poo poo" out of you. I'm sane, so despite my pants exploding over the new Triumph 675 like you wouldn't believe, I'm sticking to an EX250 or 500.
User avatar
ZooTech
Site Supporter - Platinum
Site Supporter - Platinum
Posts: 3233
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:23 am
Sex: Male
Years Riding: 18
My Motorcycle: Nomad / Ninja 500 / VLX Bobber / C3 / VS
Location: Ohio

Re: Please reconsider recommendations

#50 Unread post by ZooTech »

Dragonhawk wrote:Naturally, that doesn't mean you shouldn't try. I just hate to see noble ambitions riddiculed by the ungrateful brats you are only trying to protect.
Wow. Good thing you're around! :shock:
Post Reply