no MSF, Anyone else done this the hard way?

[Gummiente]

I was self-taught, learning as I went along. Rode for 5 years before being forced to take the CSC course in 1986 when I was posted to Calgary (it was a military requirement - if you didn't have the course, you weren't allowed to bring your bike onto the base). Thought I knew everything about riding... boy, was I wrong. That course taught me more in one weekend than I'd learned in all those years prior to it. It was a miracle that I'd survived that long. And it was a miracle I survived the course itself, what with the teeter-totter, tire jump and figure-8 loop (with all 20 bikes going around it at the same time). But I became a better rider because of it.

9 years ago I had the opportunity to become a CSC Instructor and once again during the training I realised how little I knew about riding. And, again, I became a better rider because of it. I instructed the course for 5 years before stepping out to concentrate more on my own riding time. To this day I'm still approached by former students who thank me for "saving their life" because of something I'd taught them to do - usually involving the shoulder check and/or emergency swerving technique.

Here in Ontario (not sure how it works with the rest of Canada) pretty much every insurance company offers substantial discounts on premiums if you've taken a CSC course. Most students I instructed ended up gaining back the course fee and more just from the savings it gave them on their insurance. On that point alone, it's worth the effort and loss of one weekend of your free time.

IMO, I don't care who you are and how good you think you are, if you haven't taken the CSC (or MSF in the States) you're riding on borrowed time.

[jonnythan]

Thought I knew everything about riding... boy, was I wrong. That course taught me more in one weekend than I'd learned in all those years prior to it. It was a miracle that I'd survived that long.

I've heard this from several riders. There was even one of them in my Experienced RiderCourse.

I hear the same thing in SCUBA diving and skiing as well. People who have learned by doing and have been doing it that way for countless years signing up for a fundamentals class time and again come away realizing that they have tons of experience "not dying" on the slopes and in the water but that they've been doing it so very wrong.

Motorcycling is the same. You can hop on, probably not die, and get tons of experience.... doing things the wrong way.

Sign up for the class. Statistically, you are much safter, and, practically, "you don't know what you don't know."

[High_Side]

I've been in an argumentative mood recently.. hahah (you should see my arguments on the football boards.. WOW).. So don't take this as anything other than argument because I have a lot of respect for you High-Side.. your a great part of this community...... however
your "unfounded statement" had nothing to do with the quality of instruction, but only the idea that few took instruction before 1981. Of that I still disagree...

We will have to agree to disagree then. I have been plugged in to the riding community for most of my 37 years and my father for a few decades before that and he was one of the first guys we knew that took the course. It was on a forces base and sounds very much like the course that Gummy had taken as well. It sounded great. Things are likely very different in different areas but do you really think that a high percentage of new riders took a course in the 70s?

On the topic of instructors... I had the "pleasure" of being in a class that was the final exam for a batch of 8 NEW instructors. They were basically unable to answer questions other than to re-read the range book back to us and none were very confident. It was a little dissapointing.

Bingo.

That being said, I still believe that ANYONE can learn from the BRC. Especially for people who have never been on a bike. The basics of clutch control and looking the right place in a turn, and a chance to hear about good gear and how it can save your life is important for anyone. To dismiss it as useless or not worthwile is to do a new or even experianced rider a disservice.

Don't get me wrong training is great (I just happen to be working on my training budget today and I have to keep telling myself that )
However, if you are spending your hard earned dollars make sure you get what you are paying for. Sure you might be able to pick up a few things when circling cones being led by the guy who passed the test 6 months ago, but wouldn't you rather learn from someone who has a clue? The rider training business is mushrooming, (especially in the booming economy in my area), and this should be a good thing. The downside is the examples of instructor capability that I've witnessed springing up to fill the void. If I can't do better than that I will teach my boys to ride myself. If I can find a great instructor in a good school, I might consider it....for them and me. They seem a little tough to come by lately however....*yes, I know there are some good ones out there
And don't worry about worry about ruffling feathers Mr.Shake.....I love to "debate"

[flynrider]

your "unfounded statement" had nothing to do with the quality of instruction, but only the idea that few took instruction before 1981. Of that I still disagree...

I started riding in 1980. Most of my friends rode bikes too. I think it's fair to say that few took instruction before 1981. No one I ever rode with did. I didn't even start hearing about formalized instruction (i.e. MSF) until the mid 80s. Back then, everybody learned by trial and error. Some on their own. Some with a helping hand from an experienced rider.


To the OP's question: I was one that learned on my own. I made many dumb mistakes that would have been avoided with training like the BRC, but that just wasn't an option in that time, in my area. As a result, I bent lots of metal and mangled a few body parts on my way to becoming a proficient rider. I would gladly have taken a course, had it been available. It would have been cheaper and less painful in the long run.

[Skier]

There's a lot of stories here that attempt to make poor instructors representative of a program as a whole. While instructors do provide the single experience point with a lot of students, a few bad apples don't mean a vast majority of them are nice, enthusiastic, effective instructors.

Gummiente: that course comes across as aimed at stunt riding than avoiding common street hazards. Might be fun to do, though!

Riders without formal training are far more likely to die in an accident than riders with formal training.

Please get some.

Based upon what facts?

If the Hurt report ain't your bag there's other sources:

A review of all 2,530 motorcycle crashes statewide from 1996 through 2003 revealed 92% of those involved had not attended a STAR training class. Further research of this data indicated that STAR training is associated with a 64% reduced crash risk and a 69% reduction in the risk of a fatal crash. In addition, it is estimated that if the 108 "untrained" fatalities had received STAR training, 75 would not have died.

Interesting. Is the STAR program affiliated with the MSF, or is it a private enterprise deal or state supported? If it isn't affiliated with the MSF, does the report mention how many of those 92% did have some professional training anyway, just not through their program?

STAR is not affiliated with the MSF. STAR uses TEAM OREGON's curriculum and is one of two or three states that do not use MSF's program (I thought Hawaii didn't use MSF materials, I could be wrong). It's Idaho's state endorsed program and uses a more up to date curriculum.

The report does not state how many of those 92% did not have training through STAR. What I gather from the "75 would not have died" statement is their training was either nonexistent or did not cover the hazard encountered, while the STAR program does cover it.

Full disclosure: I'm a STAR instructor and I have taken the revised MSF BRC as well as STAR's BRT.

[vbl]

Formal training will never hurt your riding prowess, and will usually help.

If you can't swing the one-time ~$160 for the weekend of instruction (and fun, btw) then you probably can't afford to maintain a motorcycle.

And who knows - you may learn something that saves your "O Ring" later. It's not like you'll get a second chance anyway.

[erbgottie]

good point vbl, I have no time to spare for the course right now. Maybe when i get out of the military I'll slide in on a session, who knows.

[Nalian]

I understand folks' point about taking courses - but for pete's sake, can't a person have a conversation with others who have shared the same experience he has without everyone jumping all over him about a safety course?

Regardless of how much you learned at a course - that doesn't invalidate those who are self-taught, or their experience. There are many arguments to be made for taking a course and very few against - I think everyone gets that. I also don't think anyone here is saying instruction is bad. I think most folks here are saying, pay attention to what you pay for and be realistic about what the MSF will actually teach you. It is not a magic course that releases only good riders, and not everyone will have the best or the worst experience. I would say mine was mediocre - I learned from it, but it could have been a lot better.

Everyone (including MSF instructors) will tell you that you leave there being "qualified to ride in a parking lot" - and that after it you need to get real world experience. In fact, they don't want you taking the advanced rider's course until after you've been riding a while! I have yet to see a place within any sort of reasonable distance that offers an intermediate course that "graduates" you to being street-qualified by their standards. I think a course is a great way to start, but that doesn't make it the only right way to start.

[mydlyfkryzis]

When I started riding in 1972, there were no local training courses. So i am self taught.

But self taught doesn't necessarily mean go out and ride (which of course, is how I initially learned). Later, I started reading about riding, and learned a lot more about the handling and nature of riding on 2 wheels. You can teach yourself. After about 10-12 years, I had a much better handle on riding. Luckily, I only fell once and didn't get hurt.

Having said all that, a good way to get some INVALUABLE pointers is to take a course. A little training goes a long way toward avoiding accidents.

Those who argue against training being valuable probably prefer self trained doctors too, as they can learn by doing too.

My suggestion, after 35 years of riding is to get the training if you can. It will not hurt you. Learning on your own may not hurt you, but it can. Had a training course been available when I started, I would of taken it. FWIW, I did take drivers education (Car) before I received my drivers license. Plenty of people get it without it, but I believe it gave me a little head start in the skills department.

[Meanie]

Anyone have a similar story??

Probably. And I'm sure some of them are dead. I don't care if you're Valentino Rossi, there's no substitute for professional training. I don't really want to share the road with untrained riders and I'm betting others don't either. Take the MSF! the life you save might be mine
Oh ya and yours too.

I have to agree...lighten up.

When I started riding, there were no MSF courses and guess what....I've never gone down and yes, I rider EVERYWHERE. The only mishap I had was with my first bike, a 650 nighthawk. I have been adjusting my rear brake light switch prior to a ride. I stopped at a light and tried to view the brake light to see if it was on. Upon doing so, I lost balance and tipped over. The only damage was to my brake lever and my ego. Now if you want to call that untrained, so be it. But I'm willing to bet my 25 years of experience will provide a good challenge to you and most others.

The MSF course is highly recommended but not harmful to a rider who cannot take it. Much experience lies within knowing our own limitations. BTW, the MSF course is a weekend training. Do you consider a rider a professional rider after that course, since, after all, it is professional training? Does that mean they can hit the track and race? It still requires practice of what was learned. Many riders can learn outside of the MSF and still practice. You're being way too judgmental. Perhaps your overwhelming confidence will do you more harm than good. Not sure I'd want to ride with someone who carries that attitude.