YZF 600 as a starter?

[HypeDOG]

I'm gonna get some popcorn and a sandwich.

Wait for me, I'll join ya

[Dennis27]

[High_Side]

Alrighty, lets take a deep breath shall we?
Now I have to respond to this little tidbit:

Actually that sounds like a lack of situational awareness and skill. Not an expression of how much the bike weighs.

I believe that Zootech has spoken a lot of truth in this thread. Your response about his mother above, shows that you don't fully understand the things you are trying to teach new motorcyclists. This is not a personal attack, but I would like you to consider that maybe 250cc bikes aren't the be-all and end-all for starter bikes. I think I had a fairly unique opportunity to compare a Honda VTR250(one of the most competant 250cc bikes going), with larger bikes for several years running as it lived in my garage. It was great fun around town, far more agile and yes, easy to handle than the bigger bikes at low speeds. It was dangerous on the highway however, relative to other bikes. The wind DID blow it around like mad (and I tend to believe I have the situational awareness to figure that out ), and it did not have enough power to safely pass at highway speeds. The chassis was very flighty and frankly overloaded by anyone weighing more than 170lbs. It would get easily upset by small irregulaities in the road. They have a purpose, but there are many reasons IMO to recommend something larger depending on the situation

[ZooTech]

Thank you, High_Side, that was really all I was trying to say.

Some of you seem to believe I am crass and uncaring regarding newbies to the sport. Meanwhile I have painful memories of hearing about my mother's tragic motorcycle crash when I was 5-years-old. She was laid up in a hospital in Kentucky for a week. The consensus of all five other riders that she was with was that her bike was too light for the interstate and was easily blown down by the flat-nosed semis of the era. In addition, I too have experience with being blown around by crosswinds and semis, all while riding a bike that was at least 150lbs heavier than the one she was on.

Scenario number two:

The coworker I have been referring to quite a bit here has a buddy who entered the sport last year. He had the sense to take the MSF course and subsequently putted around on a NightHawk 250 for the duration of the course. After passing, he went out and purchased some sort of crotch-rocket (not sure of the make/model) and proceeded to total it on the way out of the parking lot. It seems that after becoming accustomed to the wimpy throttle on the NightHawk 250, he had no idea what to expect when he twisted the grip on the crotch rocket the same amount. He ended up riding a wheelie out into traffic and struck a curb. All this after following the advice of the majority of you folks.

Look, 250cc bikes have their place. Under certain circumstances they can be an invaluable learning device. But to reach for that recommendation by sheer reflex boggles my mind, and it is often due to mal-intent on the behalf of the one giving the advice. For me, the "end all, do all" beginner bike (if there was ever a "one size fits all") would be the Ninja 500R. The chassis is still light enough and manageable for 90% of perspective riders, and it can hold its own on the freeway (to a point) and keep the owner entertained for at least a full season or two before ending up on eBay. Had I purchased a Ninja 250 like everyone advised me to, I would have parked it at the curb within a week. And that is one of NuRida's concerns, and one that I feel I have addressed with a clear conscience.

[iwannadie]

After passing, he went out and purchased some sort of crotch-rocket (not sure of the make/model) and proceeded to total it on the way out of the parking lot. It seems that after becoming accustomed to the wimpy throttle on the NightHawk 250, he had no idea what to expect when he twisted the grip on the crotch rocket the same amount. He ended up riding a wheelie out into traffic and struck a curb.

"previous post"
Personally I DID not and still DO not find the clutch to be as tricky and hair-trigger dangerous as you make it out to be.

ok i took the quotes at my own digression and highlighted what i see to be very key comments so excuse me if anything seems out of context.

you can blame his experience on the 250 for wrecking the new crotch rocket. certain i can see how one gets used to throttle/clutch on a low powered machine then its over whelmed by a bigger more powerfull bike. on that same note however someone with NO experience what so ever with a bike has even less of a chance of grasping how powerfull a super sport IS. someone coming off dirt experience will have the same problem as your friend did coming off the 250. someone coming from only car exp will have even more troubles most likely. you can floor it in a car and go in a straight line with no risk of falling over or risk of getting that famous "fist full of throttle" and going head on into traffic out of control. you seem to keep mentioning how these bikes have power at high rpms and no thing at low rpms. with the clutch in and full throttle those rpms rocket upwards. my bike(in its de-tuned glory) revs to 4k rpms in literally 2 seconds. 2 second is enough time for someone to roll the throttle on unknowingly too much while letting the clutch out to slow. when it grabs(its a new bike to them they dont know how much play is in the clutch) the rpms are at 4k and they rocket forward out of control.

you "personally" dont find it dangerous but your friend sure had a dangerous run in with this situation.

as for certain bikes being to light to go on freeways... noone said they were ment for freeway riding. who wants to go out on the freeway while learning anyways. you cant blame road/wheather conditions on the bike. while learning you need to get used to those things, no matter what bike your on your going to have to deal with wind. if its too much for you then you need to pull over and wait for it to clear or slow down OR not go on the freeway untill you have more exp and move up to your second/third bike.

its no thing more than a case of better safe than sorry. the rewards for starting on a smaller bike are very great compared to the risks of starting on a bigger bike. if your reason to ride is simple look cool on the particular model bike you have in your mind to ride, maybe the sport isnt for you. your goal should be set on learning the skills and becomming the better rider. No everyone shouldnt go out and buy a 250, but thats the first bike they should Consider, then weigh the pros/cons of a bigger/smaller bike and how it would effect Them. by coming here and asking they may in fact find a 500r is better for Them than the 250. but by starting at the 250 as a standard 'beginner bike' they have a basis of comparison to go by and make Their Own decission.

and before asking/commenting. no ive never had a problem with the clutch/gas controls. ive never gotten that fist full of throttle and gone out of control. i learned on an 800cc maruader stalled it a few times my first day that was it. yes i started on an 800 cruiser and had no problems doing so, no i wouldnt recommend that for Everyone. yes i have recomened it to Someone who in fact bought the exact model i had and learned on it with no problems as well. the person i recomended it to i knew his driving style and felt confident he could handle it other wise if i didnt know his driving exp i would had said '250' all the way.

/rant

[High_Side]

[ i learned on an 800cc maruader stalled it a few times my first day that was it. yes i started on an 800 cruiser and had no problems doing so, no i wouldnt recommend that for Everyone. yes i have recomened it to Someone who in fact bought the exact model i had and learned on it with no problems as well. the person i recomended it to i knew his driving style and felt confident he could handle it other wise if i didnt know his driving exp i would had said '250' all the way.

/rant

To put this "rant" into context: Have you ever owned a 250cc bike for a period of time that allowed you to make these "informed judgements"?
High_Side

[iwannadie]

[ i learned on an 800cc maruader stalled it a few times my first day that was it. yes i started on an 800 cruiser and had no problems doing so, no i wouldnt recommend that for Everyone. yes i have recomened it to Someone who in fact bought the exact model i had and learned on it with no problems as well. the person i recomended it to i knew his driving style and felt confident he could handle it other wise if i didnt know his driving exp i would had said '250' all the way.

/rant

To put this "rant" into context: Have you ever owned a 250cc bike for a period of time that allowed you to make these "informed judgements"?
High_Side

ive never said they were "informed judgements". ive put maybe 500 miles on various 250 bikes. i know plenty of people with them and go by their "informed judgements" as well as asking as many questions as i can and learning from others who have the exp.

guess i should have stuck with not posting to this thread like i originally intended lol it always comes back to 'Me' and my abilitys and experiences some how. rather than focusing on the debate of why generally a smaller bike is better for most to learn on.

[High_Side]

ive never said they were "informed judgements". ive put maybe 500 miles on various 250 bikes. i know plenty of people with them and go by their "informed judgements" as well as asking as many questions as i can and learning from others who have the exp.

guess i should have stuck with not posting to this thread like i originally intended lol it always comes back to 'Me' and my abilitys and experiences some how. rather than focusing on the debate of why generally a smaller bike is better for most to learn on.

Go ahead and play the victim if you choose, but I just asked a question that is relevant to someone trying to filter through the ranting. It wasn't directed at you personally....and thanks for answering the question.

[iwannadie]

ive never said they were "informed judgements". ive put maybe 500 miles on various 250 bikes. i know plenty of people with them and go by their "informed judgements" as well as asking as many questions as i can and learning from others who have the exp.

guess i should have stuck with not posting to this thread like i originally intended lol it always comes back to 'Me' and my abilitys and experiences some how. rather than focusing on the debate of why generally a smaller bike is better for most to learn on.

Go ahead and play the victim if you choose, but I just asked a question that is relevant to someone trying to filter through the ranting. It wasn't directed at you personally....and thanks for answering the question.

im just tired, ive been up for nearly 30 hours right now

[isnowbrd]

I think I had a fairly unique opportunity to compare a Honda VTR250(one of the most competant 250cc bikes going), with larger bikes for several years running as it lived in my garage. It was great fun around town, far more agile and yes, easy to handle than the bigger bikes at low speeds. It was dangerous on the highway however, relative to other bikes. The wind DID blow it around like mad (and I tend to believe I have the situational awareness to figure that out ), and it did not have enough power to safely pass at highway speeds. The chassis was very flighty and frankly overloaded by anyone weighing more than 170lbs. It would get easily upset by small irregulaities in the road.

I suppose this is true when compared to your new VTR1000 , but I don't think the VTR250 is as bad as you state. I used to ride mine down the interstate following the 85mph traffic with no problem. Sure there is a blast of wind off the front of semis, but you just prepare for it, and lean into the wind. I've never had a problem. And I thought it passed very well compared to the 4 banger cagers I've always driven. I would say it passes like a very competent 6 cylinder car. It wasn't until I got my 600 that I realized that it's actually a slow motorcycle.
Although I only weigh 160lbs and that might explain it all.

I will say that if a new rider is planning on spending a lot of time on the interstate, they should probably not get a 250cc motorcycle. Actually, they shouldn't get a sport bike at all. Go with something more comfortable.