Protective gear questions

[Ivan M]

There's nothing wrong with wearing steel toe boots. The steel toe doesn't just turn and cut your toes off from a little impact, it takes a huge amount of force. In that scenario without protection, your toes are done for anyway. On the other hand, the steel toe can save your toes from small to moderate impacts and it doesn't take much force to crush an unprotected toe so that it never heals.

That said, I'm not advocating steel toe boots as superior riding protection. There's just no reason with regard to protection not to use them. If you find they're too bulky, or you can't feel the shifter then maybe you need a different pair. I've never had a problem with any of my three pairs of steel toes and neither have I noticed any difference in shifter feel between my regular leathers and steel toes.

[Ivan M]

I found a link to a mythbusters episode that busted the steel toe myth. To sum it up

Mythbusted: They had to mount a blade in order to get amputation with the steel toe boot and all their other tests showed much more damage to the foot when regular boots are used.

http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2005/11/epis ... tatio.html

[sv-wolf]

Personally, I wouldn't take much notice of a programme like this. Simple, unrepeated and uncontrolled experiments of this kind have no scientific value. The lack of context is also pretty unconvincing.

It's hard to get at the truth of this kind of thing. Instances of amputation have been documented in real world situations - but very rarely and I wouldn't like to say how reliable the documentation is.

What is being claimed does make a reasonable amount of sense, though. For toes to be amputated, the toe cap would have to be bent forcefully forward not backward, and I would have thought that the chances of that happening in a motorcycle accident are very slim. But who knows?

In my view, the jury is still out on this one.

I wouldn't wear steel-toed boots because of the lack of feel they give - but everyone to his own.

[ofblong]

Soooo, anyone have any advice about pants? I can try on gloves fairly easily, but I have no idea what to even look for in pants.

I have the Joe Rocket Alter Ego Overpants. I love it. I use it all year round. It has the removable cold weather liner, venting, as well as knee armor and hip padding.

(sorry to thread jack, but...) HYPERR...did you ever wear them in the rain? Were they really waterproof? Been debating picking up a pair to replace my overpants.

In terms of gear learn from a few of my mistakes...
Pants: mgdavis + 1 get long zippers, all the way up if you can. I have 10 inch zips on mine and have to take off my boots before removing them. Less than fun in a parking lot. Zip out liners are also your friend

I originally was very gung ho about leather until I realized that textiles had gotten several friends through crashes just fine and that I don't like being reaaaally hot at the traffic lights.

Good luck with the class and the gear

Thats exactly why I went with textile instead of leather. Leather is AWESOME for winter rides but so is textile with textile being versatile enough to be able to go from cold to hot .

[Ivan M]

A simple experiment has no less scientific validity than an experiment that is unnecessarily complex. In this case, they tested three types of impacts with varying force on a steel toe boot and an unprotected boot. These tests simulate very well the impacts these boots are designed to protect against, so I'm not sure where the problem with context is. Also, they do repeat their tests and the results shown are edited results.

The truth is that steel toe boots offer better protection. If you were to believe this amputation myth in spite of evidence to the contrary, you still have all the small to moderate impacts where the protection saves your toes. There is no question that unprotected leather boots will not save your toes. When you weigh the amputation myth against the chance of your toes being destroyed in an unprotected leather boot, the protection carries more weight.

In the riding context, the protection is negligible, but nobody is going to be amputated by their steel toe either. There is no reason to tell a guy who might be trying to save money that his steel toes are going to amputate him in the event of a crash.

[ofblong]

I wore steel toe boots for my MSF course. Then I got hiking boots which are now ruined after 2 years of riding. I need to go buy some new riding boots when my wife returns from TN.

[sv-wolf]

These tests simulate very well the impacts these boots are designed to protect against

The truth is that steel toe boots offer better protection.

There is no question that unprotected leather boots will not save your toes. When you weigh the amputation myth against the chance of your toes being destroyed in an unprotected leather boot, the protection carries more weight. .

I admire your certainty, Ivan - and your faith in the producers - but I'd want to see something that, at the very least, was peer reviewed by those who are experts in the protocols for tests of this kind. As I said, in my opinion the jury is still out.

[Ivan M]

ANSI (American National Standards Institute) sets the standards for protective footwear. There are two basic requirements all safety footwear must meet: Impact and compression. There are three classification of each according to test results. 1/75, 1/50 and 1/30 are designations for test results done with a 50 pound weight dropped from a set height. C/75, C/50 and C/30 are designations of tests done compressing the safety toes at 2,500 pounds (C/75), 1,750 pounds (C/50) and 1,000 pounds (C/30). The toe must have a minimum clearance inside the toe area of the shoe of 16/32" for men's footwear and 15/32" for women's footwear after the tests are completed.

That means every steel toe with the ANSI standard has been tested in the same way. If your boot is ANSI certified, then that model has been tested to withstand these impacts and crushing forces.

Instead of saying, "the jury is still out" why don't you find evidence to legitimize your myth?

[Lion_Lady]

No need to wear FULL motorcycle gear for the MSF course. All you need is whatever "Basics" are required in your confirmation letter. It is nice to have your own helmet and gloves... even a pair of full fingered batting gloves, gardening or mountain biking gloves will do better than what is usually supplied: One size fits all leather work gloves from your nearby home center mega-store.

Since you'll actually end up spending more time just sitting on the bike, waiting in line for your turn than riding, you could be in trouble in full gear, if the weather is sunny/hot.

P

[sv-wolf]

Instead of saying, "the jury is still out" why don't you find evidence to legitimize your myth?

Hi Ivan

I used to work in a multi-disciplinary clinic. I've personally come across two injuries from steel toe caps - both minor, not amputations or crush injuries, but cuts and bruising. I've also heard anecdotal reports of more serious injuries from other medics. None of these injuries were bike related, but as far as I am concerned, they are suggestive.

The problem with trying to assess the safety issues in situations like this is that there are probably many variables. The depth of the toe caps, the quality and fit of the boot, the construction of the boot, and the forces on the foot at the time of impact are all likely to be crucial. In my judgement, one of the cases I saw would almost certainly not have happened if the guy had not been wearing boots that were a size too big for him.

You seem to have a black and white notion about this issue: either we know for certain that toe caps are safe or we don't. That's your position, not mine. Your emotional attachment to the issue appears to have blinded you to the point that was made in my last post. It isn't 'my myth' as you suggest. As far as I am concerned, you might be right in your assertions - or you might not, but up to now I haven't seen any evidence that is convincing enough to resolve the issue one way or another.

I've been around long enough to have had a number of bike spills myself and known many others who have had the same. In all that time I've only ever heard of one crush injury where it's possible that the toes might have been saved by reinforced caps - but as the guy's foot and ankle had to be amputated anyway, that wouldn't have given him much comfort.

This is just anecdotal evidence, of course, and there may be compelling reasons to suppose that under certain circumstances, steel toe caps could be significantly more protective than good quality bike boots in motorcycle-related incidents. But, once again, I haven't seen any particularly good documentation on this - not that I've been searching for it. If you can find something, then that would be very useful.

In the meantime, without any really serious evidence one way or another it is up to everyone to make up their own mind. A lot of the time, people choose their kit (or their beliefs) for reasons that have nothing to do with safety concerns anyway, though safety is often used as a pretext to justify their choice. I guess they will probably go on doing so whatever the outcome of this debate.