Excellent figure 8

[TEvo]

Point of my comment is being able to control rear wheel slides at typical road speeds is an advanced technique.

Riyuchi Kiyonari is a professional World Superbike rider. That's like comparing Tiger Woods to your recreational golfer.

Have fun exploring traction limits!

[beginner]

Point of my comment is being able to control rear wheel slides at typical road speeds is an advanced technique.

I'm not trying to do that. Slip happens at slow speeds too.

Riyuchi Kiyonari is a professional World Superbike rider. That's like comparing Tiger Woods to your recreational golfer.

Regardless, the principles are the same. I've watched that video a bunch of times, trying to see or hear what he does to influence slip.

Have fun exploring traction limits!

Rear wheel slip in a turn can and does happen without an intentional action by the rider. That's something beginnners need to know. Eventually you get balanced enough to feel it. That took me 6 months. Perhaps it would have happened sooner if I'd known what to look for. In the figure 8s I can make it happen over and over, every few seconds, at a safe slow speed and work with it more and more. I had one close call. The bike got leaned, and the steering bar turned, just a bit to far, and the contact patch got too far forward and "pinched" and the bike hopped half way across the parking lot before I got it settled down. On grass I did a flop because I pushed things a little too far but at such slow speeds the risks are low.

The things I've found that increase slip are tightening the turn, adding power or shifting weight, either to the side or forward or back. Those, separately or combined can be very subtle and have a pronounced effect. I do not have it all figured out. It's possible to do them unintentionally and increase slip until it causes a problem. I've experienced that. I'm glad to be able to do this. It makes me more stable and it's fun.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Here's a video you should look at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjmYIQwg9Pw

Shows how the rear tracks INSIDE the front. You can see the front stays between the cone path and the rear is INSIDE the cone path.

IF you slip the rear, you should be able to shave keep BOTH weeks between the cones by slipping the rear to a matching path with the front.

Such and exercise at 10 mph should be clear to the 'slip" of the rear.

You really want to see slip? We call it "DRIFT" or "Backing it in"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNku9oLq ... annel_page

AND when slip becomes...well, launch...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHFK00J2 ... annel_page

[TEvo]

There is something wrong if you are getting rear wheel slides at or below 10mph.

Kiyonari is inducing slip because he is trying to accelerate as hard and as quickly as possible out of the turn. He is controlling it primarily with the throttle and with corrective handlebar input. Entering the turns, it's a knife edge balancing act with front wheel traction. I think in a several corners, he is actually sliding the front and on a couple occasions, nearly loses it.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Another thing to remember about the Kiyonari video is that in dry high traction situations there's not near as much sliding going on. Let me butcher some physics:

Kiyonari uses a rain wet track to creat a situation where he can slip/drift/slide his bike.

At 10mph, overwhelming the simple 1G pull of the planet is...well, impossible. (Caveat--ICE, SNOW, LARGE WAXED SURFACES offer the kind of traction you could potentially get slip/drift/slip at 10mph...but clean dry asphalt? Nahhhhh.)

Of course a video showing the rear tracking OUTSIDE the front would go a long way to convincing me.

[beginner]

Shows how the rear tracks INSIDE the front. You can see the front stays between the cone path and the rear is INSIDE the cone path.

Cars do the same thing for the same reason.

IF you slip the rear, you should be able to shave keep BOTH weeks between the cones by slipping the rear to a matching path with the front.

I'm sure you have a video of that. I'm looking forward to seeing it.

Such and exercise at 10 mph should be clear to the 'slip" of the rear.

A controlable slip on pavement under 10 mph is easy to feel but subtle to the eye. I'm not sure about grass because I haven't videoed that. Playing with slip is going to be a major practice item next summer. Time will tell how far I'll get with it. Regardless it's all going to be slow speed stuff.

It's interesting to watch the highly proficient riders slipping the rear. It shows how far it can be taken. To may eye they are getting all done with body weight and steering.

It's not just for high speed experts. It can be practiced at slow speeds too and it's still relevent and useful. For me to get there on pavement involved some luck. I got very comfortable doing 18'by36' figure 8s and once that's in hand it turns out to be a safe place to test traction limits.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

IF you slip the rear, you should be able to shave keep BOTH weeks between the cones by slipping the rear to a matching path with the front.

I'm sure you have a video of that. I'm looking forward to seeing it.

The onus isn't on me to prove your faulty belief right. The onus is on YOU to prove YOURSELF right.

You're not slipping the rear. Just...you ain't. Sorry. I got no video of it cause it can't be done. If you can do it: Post it. I would suggest reading the "Motorcycles, Life & Fast Talkers" in the Pictures, Stories, Travel and Events Forum. Time to put up.

[TEvo]

Another thing to remember about the Kiyonari video is that in dry high traction situations there's not near as much sliding going on.

Unless your name is Ruben Xaus and you are having some fun...


Or Marco Melandri before he lost his mojo on the Ducati.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/254352/melandris_drift/
[/img]

[beginner]

Another thing to remember about the Kiyonari video is that in dry high traction situations there's not near as much sliding going on. Let me butcher some physics: Kiyonari uses a rain wet track to creat a situation where he can slip/drift/slide his bike.

You offered videos showing equally dramatic slip on dry pavement.

At 10mph, overwhelming the simple 1G pull of the planet is...well, impossible. (Caveat--ICE, SNOW, LARGE WAXED SURFACES offer the kind of traction you could potentially get slip/drift/slip at 10mph...but clean dry asphalt? Nahhhhh.)

First, I do nothing so dramatic as in those videos. Regardless, the rear tire slips by nature, not just by applying a techniqe. If the rear was as sticky as the front sliping the rear would be a lot harder. The rear tire uses up traction by scrubing, that creates more slip than in the front. Near the traction limit it happens at low speeds or higher speeds.

The more the rear slips the less effort it takes to increase the slip. If the rear already has a tiny amount of slip, which is going to be true in a turn near the traction limit it doesn't take a lot of force to increase it, nor to decrease it.

The technique of slipping the rear is not what's hard. It's FEELING the slip in the first place, especially when it's subtle. The challenge is to create a situation where the slip happens frequently and you can learn to feel it. The figure 8s got that done for me. I would add, I had to get my figure 8s quite smooth before I was going to feel subtle slip in the rear. The first challenge was feeling it.

Of course a video showing the rear tracking OUTSIDE the front would go a long way to convincing me.

You already have videos of people doing that. It's beyond my ability right now. It might always be. I can slip the rear enough to feel it and to influence how I steer the bike in limited situations. At my level of ability the bike would be on the ground before I got the rear that far out of line with the front.

[Gummiente]

It's beyond my ability right now.

Perhaps it is beyond your ability to ride. Nothing but pages of figure 8's and other parking lot practices from you.... maybe it's time to just shut the hell up and GO RIDE instead of picking and discussing the techniques to death on an online forum.

Post some pics of your favourite NON-PARKING LOT rides and destinations. Tell us what you like about riding ON THE STREETS. Enlighten us as to what your favourite type of motorcycle is and why.

But for the love of all that is sacred, LEAVE THE F***ING PARKING LOT AND GO FOR A RIDE.