My Thoughts on Rider Education (long)

[beginner]

I work in a hospital system... And there are many things that one part of the institution knows that other parts do not. The flow of information - even known - is not guaranteed.

As far as I know - the do absolutely no cross-referencing between what is on the police report and reported statistically and DMV records.

The situation may be as bleak as you say but that can be checked. We know that traffic citations with points are added to drivers license records. So other things might be added like motorcycle endorsements. If that is added there is at least a record create date.

It is possible to find out if the endorsement date is added to the license record by the state, by asking. It is possible to find out if the state matches accident reportst to drivers license records, by asking. If they do just those two things already then what I'm hopeful for is doable without changing police practices.

[Brackstone]

Lets not turn this thread into something other than it's not supposed to be


I'll recap things a bit

#1. I don't want this to be another MSF vs PLP vs RWE (Real World Experience) thread. So lets stop that right here.

#2 . The fact of the matter is what we are trying to prevent here is people having a lack of confidence and over thinking all situations.

Beginner: It's fine that you feel that group situations aren't the safest but PLP is not the answer either in this situation either. People that believe they can learn everything on their own wouldn't sign up for an MSF course and therefore this group of people wouldn't benefit from this discussion.

What we are trying to address here is people that come to the MSF course because they want to learn in a group environment but are still entirely too afraid to safely ride even after successfully graduating.

#3. Yes it would be helpful if motorcycle crash statistics indicated if the driver was endorsed or not. This however is offtopic and should probably be discussed in another thread adressed to the AMA as they are still working on formulating how the new study will be done.

[PacificShot327]

What we are trying to address here is people that come to the MSF course because they want to learn in a group environment but are still entirely too afraid to safely ride even after successfully graduating.

Why is that?

I've been on the forum for a few months now, pretty much absorbing as much good advice as I can, and in the meantime, I have come across several posts of people's beginning stages of their riding experience, and a few of them have been too afraid to get out and about, so they stick to parking lots. Why?

I tried to pay the best attention I could during my MSF course, and it really helped a ton (has already helped in avoiding a few close calls), but I don't see how I could truly refine those skills if I spent all my time in a parking lot. Rapid breaking, sure. U-turns, sure. But in an empty parking lot, there aren't the dangers of blind soccer moms with cell phones glued to their ears, so the reflexes cannot be formed.

When I bought my bike, I had to have some way of getting it home. I didn't have any friends who rode, and we didn't have a trailer. :-/ It was a little scary, but I knew I had to get her back somehow, and the only way to do that was to ride it 30 miles back home. I had to just do it - suck it up, tighten up the gut a bit, and go.

So why are people still so afraid of getting out on to the roads? That is where the majority of my learning has occurred, and still does every time I go out.

Hanging out in a parking lot all the time will help with some things, but at a certain point, I really think one wouldn't learn quite as much. Maybe it's just different among people. Maybe they're not confident in their low speed turns or braking, etc. I wasn't, though, and am still not. Maybe a solution would be to restrict riding to certain times of the day (when there aren't so many people on the road)?

^--the ramblings of a newb, take them how you will--^

[beginner]

#2 . The fact of the matter is what we are trying to prevent here is people having a lack of confidence and over thinking all situations.

Lacking confidence and thinking things over are both rational when it comes to motorcycles. If you aren't certain you can do something on a motorcycle then you can't. Nothing irrational about that. That begs the question what's the best thing to do about it. I say practice, or, how about take a course and then practice. If someone has taken a course and is still not confident wouldn't practice be an option, a rational one?

It's fine that you feel that group situations aren't the safest but PLP is not the answer either in this situation either. People that believe they can learn everything on their own wouldn't sign up for an MSF course and therefore this group of people wouldn't benefit from this discussion.

PLP and training is not an either/or decision. It's possible to do both.

What we are trying to address here is people that come to the MSF course because they want to learn in a group environment but are still entirely too afraid to safely ride even after successfully graduating.

what do you think beginners should be ready for after the class? May be the person you describe needs more learning even after 3 days. I was very intimidated by the bike in the beginning. I responded to that with many hours of practice, which I enjoyed.

[beginner]

I have come across several posts of people's beginning stages of their riding experience, and a few of them have been too afraid to get out and about, so they stick to parking lots. Why?

Because they fear death or catastrophic injury? That's rational thinking because the possibility is real.

But in an empty parking lot, there aren't the dangers of blind soccer moms with cell phones glued to their ears, so the reflexes cannot be formed.

A lot of skills that are helpful in an emergency can be learned in a parking lot with little or no risk of a traffic accident. Most of those skills need to be practiced and that doesn't happen riding around.

When I bought my bike, I had to have some way of getting it home. didn't have any friends who rode, and we didn't have a trailer. : It was a little scary, but I knew I had to get her back somehow, and the only way to do that was to ride it 30 miles back home. I had to just do it - suck it up, tighten up the gut a bit, and go.

The prudent thing would have been to arrange for delivery to your home. A responsible dealer should be willing to do that, even if he charges something. I transported my bike 30 miles to home in the back of a pickup. Without that I would have paid for the delivery if necessary. As clueless as I was at that point I knew better than to ride the bike home.

So why are people still so afraid of getting out on to the roads? That is where the majority of my learning has occurred, and still does every time I go out.

Perhaps because they correctly judge their skills are not adequate and they are either unwilling or unable to put in the practice to address that. May be they don't know that practice is what's missing. May be they are realizing that regardless of skills riding a bike as they intended has more risks than they are willing to accept.

Hanging out in a parking lot all the time will help with some things

Which begs the question of how much PLP time contributes to safety. My view is a lot of practice time is warranted. Some people may disagree.

[Lion_Lady]

Hanging out in a parking lot all the time will help with some things, but at a certain point, I really think one wouldn't learn quite as much. Maybe it's just different among people. Maybe they're not confident in their low speed turns or braking, etc. I wasn't, though, and am still not. Maybe a solution would be to restrict riding to certain times of the day (when there aren't so many people on the road)?

I believe that a standard "learners" motorcycling permit does restrict the rider to daylight hours, among other things... got to look that up to confirm.

Whenever someone posts about being new to riding, and fearful of getting out on the road, but want to expand their real world experience, we usually suggest they get up EARLY on a weekend day (in the US, Sunday mornings are almost universally low in vehicle traffic), and head out for a bit.

Its a good way to experience varying road conditions and traffic/signal situations without having to deal with many cars. Of course, it is always up to the newbie to choose wisely how far and how long to venture out.

P

[RhadamYgg]

Hanging out in a parking lot all the time will help with some things, but at a certain point, I really think one wouldn't learn quite as much. Maybe it's just different among people. Maybe they're not confident in their low speed turns or braking, etc. I wasn't, though, and am still not. Maybe a solution would be to restrict riding to certain times of the day (when there aren't so many people on the road)?

I believe that a standard "learners" motorcycling permit does restrict the rider to daylight hours, among other things... got to look that up to confirm.

Whenever someone posts about being new to riding, and fearful of getting out on the road, but want to expand their real world experience, we usually suggest they get up EARLY on a weekend day (in the US, Sunday mornings are almost universally low in vehicle traffic), and head out for a bit.

Its a good way to experience varying road conditions and traffic/signal situations without having to deal with many cars. Of course, it is always up to the newbie to choose wisely how far and how long to venture out.

P

I did this for a while - and still do. It is always a pleasure to ride on roads when the density of traffic is low.

RhadamYgg

[PacificShot327]

Because they fear death or catastrophic injury? That's rational thinking because the possibility is real.

I would hope that everyone on this forum has those fears. If any of you are out riding without the fear of being the next pancake on the evening news, you're friggin' insane.

A lot of skills that are helpful in an emergency can be learned in a parking lot with little or no risk of a traffic accident. Most of those skills need to be practiced and that doesn't happen riding around.

Why doesn't that happen when riding around? I still have a very long way to go, but I'm learning a lot, and even after having spent time in a parking lot practicing a bit, I'm convinced that learning comes more quickly and more effectively. Sort of like foreign language immersion programs. They are very stressful, but more is learned in any given period than when one is subjected to a classroom learning environment.

The prudent thing would have been to arrange for delivery to your home. A responsible dealer should be willing to do that, even if he charges something. I transported my bike 30 miles to home in the back of a pickup. Without that I would have paid for the delivery if necessary. As clueless as I was at that point I knew better than to ride the bike home.

It was a private sale. No dealer. No truck.

Which begs the question of how much PLP time contributes to safety. My view is a lot of practice time is warranted. Some people may disagree.

I think plenty of time would be great, but I believe there is a point somewhere along the line that it becomes too much/less effective. This point probably shifts around for different people.

I believe that a standard "learners" motorcycling permit does restrict the rider to daylight hours, among other things... got to look that up to confirm.

I have no idea. I never got a permit - I took the MSF course before anything else, then took the written test to get my unrestricted license. Regardless, I DO limit myself as to what times of the day I will ride. Early morning, usually.

Having been on two wheels (as far as street riding goes) for such a short time, it's not really my place to give a whole lot of feedback, but I am doing so because I want to figure out what everyone else's mindset is. Beginner, you sound somewhat hostile (for lack of a better word) in your responses. Maybe it's just a problem with text and a lack of inflection, but that's what I got out of it, and not sure why. Was just stating my opinion and story.

Anyway... I'm not saying it's the best idea to go venturing onto the streets first day out. It's not. But I AM wondering how good of an idea it is to spend so much time in a parking lot.

[beginner]

A lot of skills that are helpful in an emergency can be learned in a parking lot with little or no risk of a traffic accident. Most of those skills need to be practiced and that doesn't happen riding around.

Why doesn't that happen when riding around? I still have a very long way to go, but I'm learning a lot, and even after having spent time in a parking lot practicing a bit, I'm convinced that learning comes more quickly and more effectively. Sort of like foreign language immersion programs. They are very stressful, but more is learned in any given period than when one is subjected to a classroom learning environment.

Before I started to ride I anticipated a few things right and a few things wrong. I assumed I'd have a week or two of orientation and familiarization and then I'd just use the bike. That was so wrong it makes me laugh looking back.

So I started to practice, and practice, and practice. I rode two hours a day for 150 days. Half the time was riding around and the other half on drills and exercises. I learned to enjoy the practice so there was no burden there. Even after all that I consider my skills mediocre, ho hum, may be good compared to other people with the same hours but still Mr Lamo.

Here are two videos that seem to illustrate where I might be now and some place worth going. I might be a better rider than most of the people in the first video but I wouldn't bet my life on it. The second video is the same activity done by people who've done a little practicing, they didn't get those skills cruising around town. I'll never be close to the guys in the second video but the goal is to look more like them than the riders in the first video. Between the two, which are safer on the street?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRbZY...e=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QS3TP...eature=related

For a wild guess I'd say every serious hour on drills and exercises for leaning and turning is worth 5-10 on the street. If you stick with it long enough to notice progress you might get addicted to skill. If you're lucky enough to have that happen you'll be in a good place with your bike.

[shane-o]

These are the things that I see contribute or retract towards motorcycling or any skill as a whole:

Talent: A natural proficiency in what it is you are doing.

Some people tend to pickup certain things faster than others. For whatever reason nobody knows but these people usually rise to the top quickly on their own merits.

However there are plenty of people who think they possesses the talent to do anything and everything. I'll get into that later.

Education: Provides you with the ability to perform skills.

People who seek to educate on their own merit are often fantastic people. If I had to pick I'd rather be friends with over-educators (even though they are more annoying) than under educators. Why? Well I hate ignorant people, there I said it.

Just to clarify, there is a fine line between ignorance, and just being dumb.

Dumb is Jessica Simpson
Ignorant is someone who is a member of the KKK

Under-Education: Due to a lack of not caring or thinking you have great talent. Someone just skirting by. You know who these people are. You either work with them, or ride with them, or call them on the phone for technical support.

These people usually don't care or just want enough information to get by. Normally it's because they don't feel they really need anymore help because they are naturally gifted and everything they touch turns to gold.

These people I believe are the people who will most likely be involved in high speed crashes or drink and ride etc.

Over-Education: People who are absolutely obsessed with being 100% perfect. These people will over think everything.

You know who these people are. The people who take 30 minutes to pickup which color stapler will go with their desk best. They throw milk out 2 days early because 0.1% of the time some sort of bad reaction can happen that kills 0.00001% of the population. They know all this because when they bought the fridge for the first time in their life they bought books on "Dairy Mechanics" and took a weekend course at the local community college entitled "The Dangers of Dairy in your fridge!" in order to greater understand this menace.

These people are most likely to get injured when a situation is presented to them that requires quick thinking such as emergency braking to avoid a collision infront of you.

Once they realize this situation is happening they quickly, but carefully, reach into their back pocket and find the list of instructions that tells them exactly what to do. Once they begin reading they end up smacking face first into whatever it is stopped short in front of them.

Then they create a Story Board and a Venn Diagram with a Flow Chart kicker to greater understand how they can avoid this in the future. Possibly form an investigative panel with their Over Thinking friends.

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If you're still with me and haven't replied TLDR!!!11!!! You're probably going "So what are you saying here Brackstone?"

Well basically what I'm saying is what I think we really need is, ugh I think I'm gonna die when I say this, positive reinforcement. Oh phew I'm still alive, I felt like such a optimist when I said that and I'm a pretty big pessimist.

Why am I saying this?

Because under-educated people will always skip out on any safety training as long as it's optional. But over-educators will always opt for that training. So what we need to do is give the Over-Educators positive reinforcement and make them feel good about riding! Help them feel safe so they will abandon their obsessive nature and just learn to relax and enjoy the ride!

While drunk, I was able to simultaneously have 1 alligator clip attached to each nipple and one on my knob and keep them there for over 18 seconds. If you dont think that would be difficult, then try it. BTW each clip was brand new so that meant sharp teeth and tight springs.




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