ABS on a bike that was non-ABS

[RhadamYgg]

Well, honestly I've got two reasons for wanting ABS so much.

1) I want to reduce my risk as much as possible. This is my major premise in allowing myself to ride - that I reduce my risk.

2) I'm reading Stayin' Safe Grodsky's book (depressing given it is posthumous nature) [Christmas Present] and from his columns I have been convinced of something that I was vaguely on board with already - that the majority of motorcycle accidents are caused by bad braking techniques. In addition, that I believe that ABS would reduce the chance of having issues with braking. Although he had issues with ABS - basically, you have to be prepared to go full out on the brakes - something you wouldn't do on regular brakes - to get maximum utility out of the ABS systems.

Now, as long as I've owned the B-King, and the Ninja 250 before that I haven't locked a tire on braking - even under the severe braking I have had to do on occasion.

However, in one of the other threads I recall someone talking about having trouble locking their rear tire. There was a solution to that problem, but it did remind me that during my MSF I did in fact lock the rear tire during the braking exercise - pretty much every time on the quick stop.

Now, of course the speeds are really slow in the stopping exercise in the MSF course. But what this does tell me is that I can lock the rear wheel depending on my skills at a particular moment.

So, I'm not looking in specific for a decrease in stopping distance but the safety of being unable to lock my wheels under severe braking - say avoiding getting t-boned.

I do ride in the rain - rather frequently, so the advantage of decreased stopping distance does play a roll there.

I don't believe that ABS will save me from being stupid - say if I come in to a corner too hot and decide to brake. I'd have to see some good video examples of ABS not killing the rider braking inside of a turn when engaging in even moderate braking.

MSF ABS Testing shows pretty conclusively that ABS does in fact reduce stopping distances - even on dry surfaces. But it isn't a huge or drastic advantage on dry surfaces. In reading this study - it is pretty clear that they use terns like "Test results from non-ABS motorcycles were noticeably more sensitive to
rider performance variability" - to me meaning that personal skills greatly affected results in non-ABS bikes.

I also remember (but have no reference) to a study indicating that ABS brakes stopped bikes on a consistent short distance given average riders - and that professional riders could produce shorter distances. Being a non-professional rider - I could use any bit of help that I can get.

I have utilized the ABS in my car on dry surfaces.

RhadamYgg

[Skier]

For all my loving of modern ABS on motorcycles, none of my bikes have ever had them. Chances are good my next bike won't have them, nor the bike after that.

The best solution in this case is twofold: practice, practice practice combined with getting professional riding instruction.

Go take an experience rider course (or two!). Get out there and practice stopping with your bike at speeds you regularly attain.

When doing parking lot practice, you can measure your braking skills by carrying bean bags in your pockets. Set up markers for when to begin braking, do a maximum braking stop and drop a beanbag. Repeat and see how you are progressing.

[sapaul]

The point I was trying to make was that an investment in rider skills (and we can never do enough or stop learning) will be more valuable than an investment in an ABS system.

I also know a lot of people that take pills for chronic illnesses, (bugger the diet or healthy eating, or stopping the beer and drink never mind the exercise) the pills will cure all.

People get bikes with ABS and believe they are now more capable than anyone else, just not true.

[RhadamYgg]

sapaul,
You are right. I didn't address your point. Investing 2K in to rider education would be very worthwhile. Optimally, I'd be able to do this and have a bike with ABS.
To the point of rider skills though, I did address a little bit. My skills vary greatly - depending on a lot of non-riding factors. Having an ABS system I think would cover for some (but not all) of these variances.
But I wouldn't think it would make me better than all riders. Technology hasn't gotten to that point. I suspect if technology does get to that point - a lot of us wouldn't want to ride those specific bikes that ride themselves.

RhadamYgg

[sapaul]

I hear you Mate. I guess I can be a little biased as I am involved on the training and safety side and I see a lot of returning bikers that think the technology will replace the lack of skills and training.

Typically, the comments are that they have been riding for 30 years, riding for 5 then 25 years off, and that the technology is now better and this makes them better riders.

[Skier]

The point I was trying to make was that an investment in rider skills (and we can never do enough or stop learning) will be more valuable than an investment in an ABS system.

I don't think anyone on this board will disagree with that. I don't.

[jstark47]

However, in one of the other threads I recall someone talking about having trouble locking their rear tire. There was a solution to that problem, but it did remind me that during my MSF I did in fact lock the rear tire during the braking exercise - pretty much every time on the quick stop.

That would be me, with my Triumph Bonneville. I could stand on that rear brake with all my weight (240+ lbs).... I could bounce up and down on it.... it ain't gonna lock! It's useful for holding the bike on hills, that's about it.

Skier- I'll try to find time tonight to read through some back issues of Motorcycle Consumer News for test reports ..... just to liven up the discussion!

[Gummiente]

Rhadam, you need to realise that under certain circumstances the stopping distance will actually be increased with an ABS system. The whole concept about ABS is to enable controlled braking with maximum efficiency in all situations, not providing "on a dime" stopping distances regardless of road conditions and rider skill level. That is why there was an increase in car accidents in the first few years that ABS came out; people mistakenly assumed that they could stop shorter than with a traditional braking system in any situation, which is just not the case. ABS is not an accident avoidance system, it is an enhancement to braking systems and the sooner you understand that the better you'll be able to make full use of its potential.

[Skier]

Rhadam, you need to realise that under certain circumstances the stopping distance will actually be increased with an ABS system. The whole concept about ABS is to enable controlled braking with maximum efficiency in all situations, not providing "on a dime" stopping distances regardless of road conditions and rider skill level. That is why there was an increase in car accidents in the first few years that ABS came out; people mistakenly assumed that they could stop shorter than with a traditional braking system in any situation, which is just not the case. ABS is not an accident avoidance system, it is an enhancement to braking systems and the sooner you understand that the better you'll be able to make full use of its potential.

I would like to see articles where ABS is outperformed by a good or great rider in real world scenarios. Is running the same braking chute over and over on a closed course indicative of real world scenarios? Not so much.

Is there a study that attempts this? Or are they all "we ran the exact same closed course a multitude of times and here are the best times for ABS and non-ABS stops?"

[Gummiente]

I would like to see articles where ABS is outperformed by a good or great rider in real world scenarios.

You completely missed my point. I did not say ABS is or can be outperformed by skilled riders with traditional systems - all I am saying is that it is not an "accident avoidance system" like some people mistakenly believe it to be. 100ft ABS assisted stopping distances don't mean dodo if the truck you're trying not to hit is sitting at the 80ft mark. Do you get what I'm saying now?