I Pledge No Allegiance...

[ironboltbruce]

"I pledge no allegiance to the flag of the Corporate States of America, or
to the Kleptocracy which stole the land, and plunged our nation into debt,
insurmountable, with questionable futures for all."

–Bruce Arnold, 19-Nov-2010

http://ironboltbruce.com

[jstark47]

Took your little test. I am apparently a "centrist libertarian". I'm not sure I buy that, but it was kind of interesting. (OTOH, this would explain why I never agree with SV Wolf about anything in politics!! )

[Johnj]

[sv-wolf]

Took your little test. I am apparently a "centrist libertarian". I'm not sure I buy that, but it was kind of interesting. (OTOH, this would explain why I never agree with SV Wolf about anything in politics!! )

Are you trying to be provocative JS?

I think you've got this badly wrong. You disagree with what you think I believe, but from what I can see, you don't appear to have a clue what my politics are.

Ironbolt's pyramid covers only a small part of the political spectrum - a very conservative part. What it does is to close down real thought by pretending that these are the only possible positions anyone can take. (It is a uniquely American bit of ideology by the way: on the whole, Europeans don't think about politics in these terms.)

My views don't appear anywhere on it (even though I belong to a very old Anglo-American tradition of socialism). I don't, for example, regard myself as part of the political left any more than I do the political right - these are just alternative ways of managing capitalism; I am neither a liberal nor conservative - I despise both. I don't regard libertarians as any more "freedom loving" than fascists or Leninists (which is what the pyramid calls communists). I regard them as equally deluded. And what the triangle describes as "socialists" are merely labourists or statists - neither of which I would give you tuppence for.

In ironbolt's test, every single question and every allowed answer made the assumption that I would like to see the continuance of capitalism. If this isn't a form of indoctrination, I don't know what is.

You belong to a deeply conservative society JS. Don't tar all of us with the same unwholesome brush.

C'mon. Take off the blinkers!

[jstark47]

Richard, I simply pointed out a divergence in viewpoint. You seem awfully sensitive about allowing that little fact to be acknowledged. What brush am I tarring you with? What is this "capitaist" indoctrination? That goods exist? That labor has value? That systems of exchange have been devised? That an orderly society promoting the continued existence of these things has value?

How is my society "deeply conservative"? Because I'd like to manage my own affairs? Because I like to eat dinner? Because, having eaten dinner tonight, and labored in preparation for tomorrow, I'd like a reasonable chance of eating my dinner then, too (instead of going out begging for it, or depending on a government to feed me, or waiting for it drop, deus ex machina, from the heavens)?

If that's "deep conservatism", sign me up.

Cheers.

[Wrider]

Yeah I tend to consider myself a conservative leaning libertarian.
That test painted me as one step away from being the poster boy libertarian. (A step higher than yours JohnJ)

[sv-wolf]

Richard, I simply pointed out a divergence in viewpoint. You seem awfully sensitive about allowing that little fact to be acknowledged. What brush am I tarring you with? What is this "capitaist" indoctrination? That goods exist? That labor has value? That systems of exchange have been devised? That an orderly society promoting the continued existence of these things has value?

How is my society "deeply conservative"? Because I'd like to manage my own affairs? Because I like to eat dinner? Because, having eaten dinner tonight, and labored in preparation for tomorrow, I'd like a reasonable chance of eating my dinner then, too (instead of going out begging for it, or depending on a government to feed me, or waiting for it drop, deus ex machina, from the heavens)?

If that's "deep conservatism", sign me up.

Cheers.

LOL. I think you are taking this a lot more seriously (and personally) than I am, JS. I just like to mouth off about these issues.

You must know that among developed nations the US is an exceptionally right-wing and conservative country. You talk as though you hadn't noticed! ( ). Much of what is regarded as "liberal" in the US would be regarded as conservative elsewhere, while American conservatism is way off the scale. That's simply an observation.

And yes, if you like, an aspect of that conservatism is its extreme mythology of the individual. Human beings - you and me - are social animals who rely wholly upon each other for their survival. That's the simple reality, as true today as it was 10,000 years ago. The foundation of our lives is not our independence or individuality, but our total dependence on one another. "Individualism" is an artificial product of an economic system which first isolates human beings economically and then sets them in competition with one another. There is nothing "natural" about this. Nor does the opposite of individualism have anything to do with getting handouts from big government. That's just another extreme (and extremely conservative) way of thinking.

This American habit of setting up a sharp opposition between the individual and the state is not shared much by outsiders either. In my particular world-view the individual is a myth and the state is a coercive power backed up by violence. The only real value I see is human beings in society.

But come on JS: capitalism is an ordery society? You must be kidding. Periodic slumps, financial bubbles, perpetual warfare, gross wealth side by side with poverty, insecurity, food destruction in the midst of famine, colossal waste, a total incapacity to order things rationally, industrial unrest, political scandal, conflict, conflict, conflict... Where you been, mate?

Hmm! I'm aware it's me that is being provocative now. But I have no sympathy for patriotic or nationalistic sentiment whether its American or British or whatever. Shall I hit the delete button or...?

[pchast]

I dislike political discussion.

As long as we are discussing political systems I must say IMHO you are both off base. There can be no one ideal political operating system because of human, motivational and emotional, needs or realities.

Individual outlook is not naturally altruistic. While not necessarily greedy, we each strive for some level of comfort. Motivation does not exist without some kind of reward. Neither system in and of itself can survive pure for this reason. Regardless of what you have said the individual is necessary for the survival of any system.

I have concern for our system's survival with the current administration's bowing to UN Dictatorship.

[sv-wolf]

I dislike political discussion.

As long as we are discussing political systems I must say IMHO you are both off base. There can be no one ideal political operating system because of human, motivational and emotional, needs or realities.

Individual outlook is not naturally altruistic. While not necessarily greedy, we each strive for some level of comfort. Motivation does not exist without some kind of reward. Neither system in and of itself can survive pure for this reason. Regardless of what you have said the individual is necessary for the survival of any system.

I have concern for our system's survival with the current administration's bowing to UN Dictatorship.

LOL. Pchast. Can't help coming back on this one! I think you are right: an "individual" outlook is not naturally alturistic. "An individual outlook", though, is an artificially constructed ideology. Human behaviour, on the other hand, is resolutely altruistic and mutualistic despite all the limitations placed upon it by capitalism. If you as much as walk down a street anywhere in the world, I don't see how you can deny that. We would have died out milennia ago if we weren't the world's most co-operative species. Our co-operative nature is the greatest asset we have for survival.

For most of our time on earth we've lived in communal forms of society. The evidence for that is now overwhelming. And most cultures round the world still identify obligation to ones community, not individualism, as their central value. You seem to be confusing the highly particular ideology of your own relatively small part of the world with what the human race thinks in general or has thought throughout its history.

The fundamental fact of human society is not individual but collective action. Take one tiny example - it takes literally millions of people to get a cup of coffee to your breakfast table every morning, maybe billions. Whether you like it or not, in the twenty-first century practically every aspect of your life depends on the co-operative action of the entire global human community.

If you believe that motivation does not exist without some kind of "reward" I'd suggest you have never been a parent, had a friend or arranged a family holiday; never given money to charity, never helped someone out in a fix, or co-operated with people as a member of club or volutary organisation. If I were to take you at your word I'd have to believe that you've never been employed in an organisation where you have had to co-operate with others to get the job done. It sounds to me like you are repeating an article of faith rather than speaking out of your own experience.

You've got things back to front. Capitalism has forced an extreme kind of economic isolation on us, and created forms of social organisation where one person's gain is always another person's loss. I've seen that institutional process evolving even in my own lifetime. It's a highly recent phenomenon. In our capitalistic world, survival depends on a degree of individual self-centred action. But this is not "naturally" what we are. It's what we have to become to survive within a competitive system.

Personally I don't think you should worry about the US administration bowing to the "UN dictatorship"; I think you should stop identifying yourself with the interests of the US (or any other) state because it sure as hell is not interested in yours.

Cheers

Richard