What actually makes a bike turn?

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Sev
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#11 Unread post by Sev »

Motorcycle Steering and Stabilitiy

Perhaprs I should have included the disclaimer that everything I said pertained solely to highspeed (20km/h+) turns.

A spinning wheel will naturally right itself. This is why a bike with two balanced wheels and steady throttle will actually continue in a straight line without any imput into the handlebars. You can take both hands off (if you're crazy enough) and it will still stay in a straight line.

That's literally the centrifuge effect coming off the spinning wheels. The faster they spin, the more self righting they will do. This is why you're told to put on throttle if you scrape a peg in a turn, because the increased speed will force the bike to right itself even if the handlebar remains the same. Try it sometime, rather then steering out of your turn just power out of it and let the handlebars do what they want. They pull back to a striaght line.

Even better see if you can find a street that has just been graded. Where they run the machine down it and peel off the top level of asphault leaving those absolutely awful running ridges and grooves. Pick a single groove and try to follow it perfectly straight. You can't the bike judders back and forth underneath you. Because the tire presses up against one side (we will say left in this case) of the ridge simulating a lean and will pull itself over the little ridge into the groove on the left. Now that you've cleared it the ridge is pressing agianst the right side of the tire. So you're "leaning right." And the bike turns back to the right slightly.

Perhaps you misunderstood something of what I said, Centrifugal force keeps the bike upright while it's under motion. The spinning of the two wheels causes everything attached to them to stay straight. The point of steering and countersteering is to break the force generated by the wheels so you can lean over and make a turn.
Wedsite Above wrote:Gyroscopic forces, primarily of the two wheels, but also other components whose axis of rotation is in the same direction as the wheel spindles, tend to resist any change in the angle of lean of the motorcycle. Gyroscopic “resistance” to a change in lean angle increases as the rate of rotation of the wheels increases and the rate of rotation increases as road speed increases. A phenomenon known as gyroscopic precession also has a minor effect but does tend to correct the steering if the bike starts to lean. Precession translates a force trying to rotate the axis of a gyroscope in one plane into a force trying to rotate the axis in a plane 90 degrees offset in the direction of rotation of the gyroscope. Whew! What this means for the motorcycle is that a leaning movement to the left, through gyroscopic precession, will tend to turn the front wheel to the left. This is why a quarter rolled on the floor will tend to keep upright: if the quarter starts to lean to the left gyroscopic precession makes it TURN to the left, steering the contact patch under the Center of Gravity.
Of course I'm generalizing from a single example here, but everyone does that. At least I do.

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#12 Unread post by ronboskz650sr »

I just wanted to add one thing. Two hands are not required to do this. You can push on the side you want to turnr to, or you can pull on the other side. The other day, Chris and I turned onto a country road about an hour before dusk. The road switched and turned so much that we had to initiate turns with the right hand only, and use the left hand to shield our bug-splatter impaired eyes from the bright setting sun. It's not a big deal, and here's where the bike's tendency to stay up helps you ride safely...if you are practiced enough to do whatever it takes to get the job done. we were metting cars you couldn't even see if you didn't shield your eyes...just the nature of riding that time of day this time of year BTW, I am crazy enough to take both hands off, and do it frequently at various speeds on every ride. It's second nature, like it was on a bicycle. It may be to sit all the way up and pop my back, or it may be to wave both hands at Chris to get his attention for a route change....whatever. I also wave to people when I recognize them in a 30 mph curve , even if I'm going 70 and leaning pretty far over, with one hand ( :shock: ). The bars are just controls...my legs keep me on the bike.
Ride safe...God bless!
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#13 Unread post by niterider »

So if you push away with the left hand the bike goes left; therefore; the front wheel is slightly turned opposite to the way the bike is going?? This works only on curves not on tight u-turns???

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#14 Unread post by Sev »

I always worry some big pot hole or other obstruction is going to pop up right when I take both hands off the bar, so I always keep at least one on there. Yeah, push, pull it's all the same. But I have more fun using both hands, I'll be more aggresive with the steering.

Do you have a throttle lock? Or do you just let the bike slow down in gear when you take both hands off? Mine doesn't have a lot of flywheel effect, so getting off the gas means I slow down a lot... and fast.
Of course I'm generalizing from a single example here, but everyone does that. At least I do.

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#15 Unread post by ronboskz650sr »

Sevulturus wrote:I always worry some big pot hole or other obstruction is going to pop up right when I take both hands off the bar, so I always keep at least one on there. Yeah, push, pull it's all the same. But I have more fun using both hands, I'll be more aggresive with the steering.

Do you have a throttle lock? Or do you just let the bike slow down in gear when you take both hands off? Mine doesn't have a lot of flywheel effect, so getting off the gas means I slow down a lot... and fast.
I didn't mean to imply I go helter-skelter with the no-hands. These are areas of high visibility, no traffic, no driveways...etc, very well known road surface...very controlled surroundings where some decelleration is okay. I'm usually in top gear, and willing to sacrifice a little speed, or headed for a stop sign at the bottom of a slight grade...stuf like that. Pretty much the same stuff I used to find myself doing on a bicycle...old habits die hard and even resurface. :laughing: As for the one-handed turning, it's more often the right hand...no throttle lock, besides, the front brake is right there, too. I have practiced the left hand, too, but the slowing down gets old.
Ride safe...God bless!
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#16 Unread post by Sev »

ronboskz650sr wrote:I didn't mean to imply I go helter-skelter with the no-hands. These are areas of high visibility, no traffic, no driveways...etc, very well known road surface...very controlled surroundings. As for the one-handed turning, it's more often the right hand...no throttle lock, besides, the front brake is right there, too. I have practiced the left hand, too, but the slowing down gets old.
Whoops, neither did I. I just always worry that I'll have missed something or something stupid. So I figure I'm better off keeping at least one hand on there at all times.
Of course I'm generalizing from a single example here, but everyone does that. At least I do.

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#17 Unread post by ronboskz650sr »

I had a guy at church ask me about one handed steering last week. I've ridden with him, and he rides with one hand alot...throttle lock and all, for both sides, even no-hands on the freeway :shock: . I was shocked whan he asked me how you can go around a corner using only one hand! I guess he always does it in a straight line. I find myself puting my visor up and down in foggy or extra hot conditions, while braking and shifting (i usually shift clutchless after second gear anyway), as I approach or leave traffic lights. I keep a large following distance from the vehicles in front of me, and have caught myself doing this many times. It's pretty inadvertant, but I've noticed there is never any impending danger when i am doing it. I've been paying attention lately, and find I ride most of the time with both hands, but just do whatever is comfortable or expedient sometimes. I guess everybody has their own style. Oh the guy with the question has been riding over 30 years without any years off! Interesting, to me at least.
Ride safe...God bless!
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#18 Unread post by blair »

We've done this before.

Gyroscopic effects are not how bikes turn. The absence of violent nutation in most turns is enough to convince me of that.

And fork-trail is why a bike is stable at speed.
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#19 Unread post by Posthumane »

Agreed with blair on this one. Nothing to do with gyroscopic effects of spinning wheels. If you put skis on a bike and rode it down a hill, you would have the exact same steering effects without any spinning wheels. When you counter steer, you move the contact patch sideways in relation to the center of gravity (CG) of the bike. This puts the CG slightly beside the contact patch, causing the bike to start falling over. The trail in the front forks causes the wheel to turn towards the inside of the turn to compensate for that (try riding a bike with absolutely no caster trail, or better yet, negative trail. If you take your hands off the bars, the bike will fall over. it is naturally unstable). If you let the bike do its thing, it will naturally right itself (or atleast mostly, depending on the design of the bike). That's why you have to maintain some pressure on the bars in the opposite direction to keep the bike leaning in the turn.

Although countersteering is the fastest way to initiate a lean on a motorcycle, you can do it by leaning your body as well. The problem with this is that a MC weighs a lot more than its rider typically. So even if you lean waaay off the bike, you are only moving the CG of the bike/rider combination by a little bit. This will cause only a very light turn. On a bicycle on the other hand, you can cause some very quick/sharp turns by leaning your body because you weigh a lot more than the bike, and because bicycles typically have much less caster trail (therefore, less straight line stability).

On another note, in order to maintain a stable turn, the force vector made up of a combination of gravity and conrering force acting on the CG must always go through the contact patch. If the force vector is directed inside the contact patch, the bike will lean more until they match, and if it is directed outside the contact patch, the bike will right itself a bit to compensate. Because of this, a given lean angle (of the CG with respect to the contact patch) will always result in the same cornering force. Ie, a 45 degree lean (with the rider upright on the bike) will always be a 1g turn, no matter what speed it is at. However, the rider can move the CG of the bike by leanin off the bike, as done by bike racers. By leaning into the turn, the rider can shift the CG further towards the inside of the turn allowing him to get higher cornering force for a given lean angle of the bike itself.

Wow, that was long winded....

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#20 Unread post by sv-wolf »

I got lost in this, and didn't read all the posts right through, so apologies if I am repeating anything.

I agree that gyroscopic action is not responsible for making a bike turn, but there seems to be a good theoretical reason for supposing that gyroscopic progression makes some contribution to lean angle which then begins the process of turning the bike. In other words, there are a number of forces which make a bike lean and gyroscopic action is one of them.

In gyroscopic progression, the direction of movement of a spinning wheel is displaced 90 degrees from the direction of the applied force. For example if you attempt to turn a vertically spinning wheel to the left keeping the axle level with the ground, the wheel will lean to the right and end up with the axle at an angle to the horizontal. On a bike, gyroscopic progression is brought into play by the force applied to the axle by the forks when you turn the bars.

Just leaning a moving object would not cause it to turn either. The differential distances travelled by the inside and outside edges of a contact patch on a tyre with a curved profile as it revolves are critical in this regard - at least that is what I have always understood. I can't demonstrate that empirically, but it makes perfect mathematical sense. And the forward lowering of the bike when turning a raked front end also has an effect.

One niggle that I have in discussions of this kind is the persistent reference to something called centrifugal force. You find it in technical manuals as well as in general conversation. I was looking at a diagram in a highly mathematical account of the turning question just the other day. There, sure enough was the classic diagram of a bike leaned over, with a horizontal arrow emerging from its centre of gravity pointing away from the centre of turn and labelled Centrifugal Force. This magically exixsting 'force' is always conjured out of nowhere.

I'm no engineer, but even from my limited knowledge of mechanics, I know there is no such thing as centrifugal force. So reference to it just obscures the discussion. The only turning force on a bike is the frictional centripetal force acting at the contact patch and towards the centre of the turn, not away from it.

Blair, you mentioned it in one of your early posts in your reference to an accelleration towards the centre - which centripetal force would produce.
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