I'm beginning to be less and less enthusiastic about the MSF

[storysunfolding]

The more I hear about it, the more I start to doubt the MSF. I think it's great that they teach people how to use a clutch and do basic low speed maneuvers in the safety of the parking lot on MSF bikes. However, every other driving course I've been in did this and then gave some road experience, which is remarkably different. Both for my normal drivers license, then my class b then class A commercial.

There's also this controversy that the new MSF curriculum was dumbed down to get more people on the road (remember, the MSF is funded by motorcycle companies). I believe I've found articles on this relating to Team oregan using the old curriculum and the MSF sueing them for it.

It seems like a good program but the end of the day, every person I know that's done the MSF has been UNABLE to do the Virginia Skills Test.

So they don't give road experience, and they give a basic understanding of low speed movements. The insurance break is great, but the way MSF is geared seems to be more centered on getting more bikes off the lot than to truely teach the skills for riding.

Low speed maneuvers are great, they give you a better understanding of the bike, but when the rubber hits the road you're averaging speeds over 20 mph, you're dealing with traffic, you're looking for hazards, you're doing hundreds of things that the MSF give you no experience in doing. Granted they give you the information about all this in the class but it's all available on thier website...

I don't think I'm crazy, but I would like to hear some constructive arguements for or against the MSF.

[ZooTech]

I never took it. I think it's probably a good place to start if you're new to the whole hand-control concept, but I'm concerned they may over-do it a bit. What I mean is, the folks here on this forum who took it have all said they learned about countersteering from the course itself. My argument is, since countersteering is done instinctively, why even bring it up? A fresh newbie already has a ton of stuff to think and worry about, so telling them from the get-go that everything they thought they knew about steering was totally wrong when aboard a motorcycle, but ONLY above certain speeds (which differ from bike to bike) seems foolhearty to me. Let 'em worry about shifting, braking, and balance for a while. Telling them they will turn left to go right will make them nervous and they'll pay too much attention to the anomaly and not enough to the task at hand. I think countersteering is something that should be addressed in an advanced class once all the other issues have become second nature.

[VermilionX]

hmmm

well i already practiced on my bike and even went out the streets already.

even if i don't get a lot of additional skills, i'll still get my DL389 form, i bet it's easier to get that than pass at the DMV.

[Dragonhawk]

I think the MSF is a great idea. Helps a lot. I wrote a LONG essay about it over here:
http://www.californiabikenights.com/php ... c.php?t=13

Personally, I think all riders should take it.

[flynrider]

hmmm

well i already practiced on my bike and even went out the streets already.

even if i don't get a lot of additional skills, i'll still get my DL389 form, i bet it's easier to get that than pass at the DMV.

You're in L.A? It's virtually guaranteed that a noob on a liter sportsbike is not going to pass the DMV test. I've tried the test (i.e. practiced on the DMV course when they were closed)and, though I could pass more often than not on my 750, I couldn't do it everytime with 100% accuracy (req'd by the DMV). Conversely, it's not as difficult on a small 250 if you have very good low speed skills (and plenty of clutch to burn). I was on hand when my L.A. buddies took their real test and the DMV people were real Nazis about scoring it. Of the dozen folks I watched taking the test only 1 passed. I think they make the test very difficult to force people to go the MSF route.

I think the difficulty of the CA DMV test would be warranted if the MSF participants could pass it too, but I would wager that the passing rate would really be 5 % or less.

I wonder if Arnold will enroll in the MSF course? I seriously doubt he could get one of his behemoth customized cruisers around the DMV course.

[VermilionX]

You're in L.A? It's virtually guaranteed that a noob on a liter sportsbike is not going to pass the DMV test. I've tried the test (i.e. practiced on the DMV course when they were closed)and, though I could pass more often than not on my 750, I couldn't do it everytime with 100% accuracy (req'd by the DMV). Conversely, it's not as difficult on a small 250 if you have very good low speed skills (and plenty of clutch to burn). I was on hand when my L.A. buddies took their real test and the DMV people were real Nazis about scoring it. Of the dozen folks I watched taking the test only 1 passed. I think they make the test very difficult to force people to go the MSF route.

or i could just rent a smaller cc bike and use that instead... but i think i will learn something good from the course so i'd still take it even if i won't get any insurance discounts, AAA doesn't give discounts after passing the MSF.

[Sev]

I can't think of a good reason not to take the MSF. The one I took was through NAIT (Northern Alberta Institute of Technology).

Countersteering isn't instinctive. I've been through this before an instinct is something that you do as a result of "preprogramming." Such as an infant sucking when something is placed in its mouth. Knowing that you need to push the left hand out to turn left is not an instinct. It never will be.

Motorcycle riding is a series of skills that are learned over time, and with a great amount of practise. The MSF courses are designed to teach you the basics of all the skills so that you can safely get out there and practise them yourself.

Personally when I took the course by the end of the second day we were doing practise "tests" that were twice as tough as what we needed to pass the actual skills demonstration. The pylons were twice as close together for the straight line. We had to weave twice as far for the weaves etc etc.

One of the things they had us doing was constantly getting on and off of the bikes, watched everything that every person did (4 instructors to 20 people) so only 4 people did any one thing at a time. And offered suggestions to improve our skills.

By way of example, it doesn't matter how natural of a rider you are. If you're turning incorrectly you be very unlikely to pick up on it yourself.

Honestly you can learn a lot of what you need to know from these forums, but that's like reading about sex preparing you to actually have it. It doesn't mean anything until you actually get in there and do it.

Speaking of intincts, one of any humans fight or flight response is to focus on something that is dangerous to them. If you see a mountain lion running at you, you're going to stare at it. You won't be staring at the tree 10 yards to its left. This is an instinct you need to learn to overcome. Because if you want to make a corner, and not hit the curb you need to NOT look at the curb.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Take the MSF it is very unlikely to hurt you by doing so.


PS. Maybe you've just run into some bad MSF's? Not all schools are equal afterall.

[CNF2002]

Where was that thread where someone posted statistics where something like 80% of motorcycle crashes involved people who had no formal training?

[ZooTech]

Countersteering isn't instinctive. I've been through this before an instinct is something that you do as a result of "preprogramming." Such as an infant sucking when something is placed in its mouth. Knowing that you need to push the left hand out to turn left is not an instinct. It never will be.

That'd be interesting, if it were true. However, everyone I've talked to about countersteering, regardless of how many years (or decades) they have been riding, knew nothing about countersteering until I told them about it. They then had to go ride their motorcycles just to see for themselves if they were turning left to go right and vice-versa.

It's amazing how a person can ride for thirty some odd years without being taught to countersteer. Almost as if it were instinctual or something.

Look, it's no secret you're a die-hard fan of the MSF course, but I think it's foolish to introduce a concept like that to people who could very well ride their whole lives without even knowing about it. The next time you swerve to miss a dog or a left-of-center motorist, how 'bout stopping for half a second to think about which way you should turn the bars. After doing so, can I have your stereo?

[Sev]

The above is so sad that it's not even worth my time to argue against.