I'm beginning to be less and less enthusiastic about the MSF

[storysunfolding]

I'm not sure I agree entirely with the counter steering arguement, but that's mainly because it came naturally to me and my girlfriend and we both have extensive cycling experience.

I do believe that the MSF can be helpful. It seems to be a great first step, but I don't believe the course warrents a license. You see it thrown around on here all the time with beginner bikes that a newb shouldn't ride an R1 because it's like giving a kid with his learners a ferrari. Would you give a new driver a license after 8 hours of driving experience in a parking lot? Granted when you first get a drivers license you are also learning about how traffic operates, so how about giving a semi or bus driver his commercial license after 8 hours of driving in a parking lot? Would you do that too? What if you made yourself feel better by telling those semi and bus drivers that they should go practice in a parking lot somewhere for a while before hitting the open road?

My beef with the MSF is that from a safety perspective, it doesn't warrent the granting of a license.

Sure all MSF courses aren't created equal. Some apparently take you on the road up to 35 mph to give you some practical experience. Some states demand the MSF add things to the BRC before it will waive the state tests. Virginia for example won't take a Maryland MSF completion card because it isn't as comprehensive.

[Crovello]

I drove my bike with just a permit for years. Last year I decided to take the course just to get my motorcycle endorsment. I expected it to be a wast of time other than getting my endorsment. I was wrong. Although you mostly worked at low speed ( 20mph ) I was abetter driver when I was done.

As far as counter steering is concerned, It was something I did long before anyone told me about it.

The class went on for about six hours and it was time to take our road test. I felt good about taking the test until it started to pour just before the test. It was coming down in buckets and I tought they may have to postpone the test. Wrong again! We did the test just like it was dry out, including emergency stops and swerving. I was a nervous wreck. The instructers said you may have to ride in the rain some day so why not learn how to now. I passed the test and did not drop my bike. I left there feeling I was much better driver for it. I think some actual road time would have been helpfull though.

Dave

[canuckerjay]

I'll preface this by conceeding that different courses vary in thier focus. From my perspective, though, the course I took through Humber College down here in Toronto was a good one.

Yes they taught countersteering for a bit. To be honest, all it did was confuse me. Then someone asked the instructor if it was possible to be doing it already and not know it, which was replied to with a yes. I think most of us were doing it already, but were thrown off by the new term and a confusing explanation. I've always thought that if you've ridden a bicycle a few times, this would come naturally.

They also taught a few things that newbs tend to have some difficulty with, such as starting on a grade (that took me a few times to do correctly). Those types of things were useful.

I honestly could have picked up the above in a well-chosen parking lot. However, they expediated that process and made my learning more effective as well.

BUT the true benefit of the course was the emergency response training. I don't know about other courses, but they had us accelerate as fast as we could at an instructor, then dash to the left or right at the last second (wherever the instructor decided to point). They also did extensive training on emergency stops. At the time, I didn't think it would make that much of a difference, but as soon as I got on the road, I was amazed that after one weekend of instruction, those maneuvers were instinct when faced with surprise on the road.

I guess the only failing of my course (and I don't think this can be remedied) was that we learned on little DT 50s; and it took a bit of getting used to once I had a 600lb machine between my legs.

[gsJack]

In this state you can get a learner's permit and hit the road alone on a motorcycle. Worked for me and most others just 20 years ago, many then were still riding without a license or permit. A couple days MSF training should be a plus for anyone now.

[Deletor]

There are a couple of posts on here about something like that. One was by a guy who was teaching his friend to ride, but never went over countersteering. During slowspeed parking lot stuff, he kept it like a pedal bike and handled turns fine. As soon as they went to leave he bailed on the first corner, because he tried to steer into the turn. I'll start checking, but me thinks it's from before the wipe.

That would be me. Countersteering is NOT instinctual. Sure if you throw someone on a bike they will condition themselves to do it pretty quick, even if it they dont realize they are doing it. But if you throw someone with no motorcycle experience on a bike doing any decent speed and point them at a corner their is a good chance your gonna have problems.

[JustJames]

My .02

Many years ago, there was a guy tried to ride his small bike (125cc) to a tight curve with a lot of accident occured at that spot. He had tried so many times and he could go as fast as 60kmh. He copied all position from TV and racing gag but still he could only do 60kmh on this curve and some time made wide turns.
Year ago he got a chance to take MSF course, then ERC and alot of parking lot pratice plus twisty cayon rides. He think to himself, Man I can even do 80 or 100kmh (60mph) easily on that little curve, why couldn't I before?

Not alot of ppl can learn from themself to ride. Yes they might servive on daily basic but once emergency or on twisty road, something need more skill, they might found themself in an unexpect suitation. There are. of course, what we call "natural" which can taught themself to ride and ride better and safer than any education rider.

I do agree with OP (original poster) on some point about MSF which trend to get more bikes out on street more than concentrate on skill. I felt MSF course is pretty short and I didn't learn more enough, (too many ppl and very slow traffic with just a few pratice) but I'm glad that I took MSF since I can learn more and teach myself to ride properly and safety. I don't agree about counter-stering (overdo) since it is also a basic which most of the rider (seasoning rider) should know when riding and preparing for unexpect/emergency suitation.

[cb360]

My .02

Many years ago, there was a guy tried to ride his small bike (125cc) to a tight curve with a lot of accident occured at that spot. He had tried so many times and he could go as fast as 60kmh. He copied all position from TV and racing gag but still he could only do 60kmh on this curve and some time made wide turns.
Year ago he got a chance to take MSF course, then ERC and alot of parking lot pratice plus twisty cayon rides. He think to himself, Man I can even do 80 or 100kmh (60mph) easily on that little curve, why couldn't I before?

Not alot of ppl can learn from themself to ride. Yes they might servive on daily basic but once emergency or on twisty road, something need more skill, they might found themself in an unexpect suitation. There are. of course, what we call "natural" which can taught themself to ride and ride better and safer than any education rider.

I do agree with OP (original poster) on some point about MSF which trend to get more bikes out on street more than concentrate on skill. I felt MSF course is pretty short and I didn't learn more enough, (too many ppl and very slow traffic with just a few pratice) but I'm glad that I took MSF since I can learn more and teach myself to ride properly and safety. I don't agree about counter-stering (overdo) since it is also a basic which most of the rider (seasoning rider) should know when riding and preparing for unexpect/emergency suitation.

Is that you KonDee? Did you change your username? Anyway, I didn't know you were Thai - what part of Thailand are you from? Anyway... I visited there last year and I loved it. Can't wait to go back. Bangkok - now that's some crazy motorcycle driving

The MSF is a great class - of course it can't do everything. What class can in three or four days? But it does provide knowledge and a solid foundation from which to further your own private learning. I rode bikes 20 years ago and then came back to it. I could have just picked it back up again and done OK but I firmly feel I'm a better rider from having invested some time and money in professional training. It also kept me from having to deal with the flaky folks at the DMV and it saves on my insurance IN PERPETUITY. What's the problem with that?

As for countersteering - of course they should teach it. It's an important concept - that it comes naturally to some without understanding the physics is no reason to omit the underlying principles. The fact is that pushing on the right handlebar to go right when at speed is counterintuitive to lots of people. The msf is primarily a low-speed class so it's nice to have the technique in your head for when you start to go faster so that you don't try to wrench the front-wheel to the right and high-side - the fact that it's been discussed in class, viewed on screen and practiced at low-speeds can only help when you try it yourself. Since when the hell is understanding what you are doing a bad idea? Forgive me, but that's completely asinine. If you didn't take the class yourself... good for you - you're working from second-hand knowledge and don't know as much about the MSF as those who have taken it - why spend your time convincing others not to take something you're just guessing about? If you actually took the class and didn't like it at least that's a valid opinion.

[ZooTech]

Since when the hell is understanding what you are doing a bad idea? Forgive me, but that's completely asinine. If you didn't take the class yourself... good for you - you're working from second-hand knowledge and don't know as much about the MSF as those who have taken it - why spend your time convincing others not to take something you're just guessing about? If you actually took the class and didn't like it at least that's a valid opinion.

I think it's probably a good place to start if you're new to the whole hand-control concept

I've already said the MSF is probably a good place to start, especially if you've never sat on a bike. I'm not willing to throw the baby out with the bath water, I just think cramming ninety brand-new concepts down someone's throat at once is bad enough, but then on top of that they add one that hardly makes sense to some seasoned riders. Noobs need to concentrate on balance, where the controls are, how to operate them, and how to properly apply the throttle and clutch, so the last thing they need to be concentrating on is how the handlebars behave exactly the opposite from a steering wheel once moving. After all the basics become second nature, you can introduce the countersteering concept in a more advanced class. Anyone here who consciously makes a decision which way they're going to physically turn the bars to make the bike turn a given direction is a danger to himself and others.

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Countersteering
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Countersteering is the name given to the "counter-intuitive" technique used by cyclists to turn corners.

If it's "counter intuitive" to do it on purpose, then just let the poor noobs do it on their own without even knowing they're doing it. If you tell them to do it on purpose, especially on day one, that whole "counter intuitive" part will kick in and cause them to wreck out of confusion. It'd be much better to approach them after they have a few hundred miles under their belt and just let them go, "Hmmmm...interesting".

[Sev]

You touch type Zootech?

[ZooTech]

You touch type Zootech?

No I do not.