SuperRookie wrote:
I'm sorry...not to get on you or anything...or anyone else for that matter...but I find this ludicrous with regard to 'steering'. Let's say, for f*ck's sake, that your bars are in a "fixed" position...straight. How effective do you think you can turn/steer given that scenario?
Are you saying that you can steer a bike by shifting your weight? Or are you simply making the suggestion that shifting your weight helps while also putting you in a better position for steering inputs? [/b]
Well, shifting your weight makes it easier for the forces of physics to be overcome and get the bike turning. So if you lean the bike into a corner, and shift your weight to get the balance, then the bike will turn regardless of steering input...
The bars aren't fixed (if they were the bike would fall... don't you know how bikes stay up?) and you aren't equipped to "get on me".
Of course you can steer by shifting your weight. Try it. Get the bike up to 40 or so, take your hands off the bars, and then try to lift yourself with one foot/peg. The bike will turn. Not a super sharp turn, but enough to establish lane position or negotiate normal curves. Same is true at interstate speeds (with interestate level curves)... I tried it yesterday at 70mph and it worked fine.... though that was on an interestate where there wasn't a lot of turning to do.
People are being silly with this "there is only one way" approach to riding. Countersteering is a lot, but it isn't all you've got. The beauty of riding is that there are a bunch of ways to control the bike... and YOU as the rider are in control of all of them. You control the front brake and back brake, you control the countersteer and the weight distribution, you control the throttle input and the engine coupling. And, because you control all of them, you can choose a balance that works right for a particular situation. You can use one control to do one thing (e.g. bar position to turn) and another control to counter part of its effect (e.g. weight distribution to turn the other way) and have the bike leaned 15 degrees to the left while going straight.... or you can use both methods in the same direction ("knee dragging") so that the bike stands up straighter than it normally would in that sort of turn (allowing a larger contact patch).
Tyrone ORourke wrote:
But in practice where on earth can you use this type of driving unless taking some seriously fast corners??????
All the time actually... practice it. It will become second nature and enable you to do everything from avoiding potholes to avoiding stopped cars to fixing mistakes if you are taking a curve "a little wrong".
i countersteer all the time in traffic, going into turns, changing lanes, wiggling to do the slalom in between the white "hash" marks that divide the 2 lanes of a road (when the road is empty of course!)
its mo' fun that way.
[b]Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency! [/b]
Most of the time you people countersteer, without even realizing they're doing it.
And I'm with Ryan, doing slalom is fun. My instructor for the MSF told me if I wanted to go practice in an empty parking lot, get a bunch of tennis balls, cut them in half, and use them as cones. I did this yesterday, and had a lot of fun speeding the the slalom, which I didn't get to do real fast in my class, because the people in front of me were going too slow.
Member of DWPOMD and RATUBBAW
'80 Suzuki GS 450
'00 Kawasaki ZR7 ( Sold 09/08 )
'82 Honda Nighthawk 450 ( Sold 02/07 )
dieziege wrote:The bars aren't fixed (if they were the bike would fall... don't you know how bikes stay up?) and you aren't equipped to "get on me".
Of course you can steer by shifting your weight. Try it. Get the bike up to 40 or so, take your hands off the bars, and then try to lift yourself with one foot/peg. The bike will turn. Not a super sharp turn, but enough to establish lane position or negotiate normal curves. Same is true at interstate speeds (with interestate level curves)... I tried it yesterday at 70mph and it worked fine.... though that was on an interestate where there wasn't a lot of turning to do.
People are being silly with this "there is only one way" approach to riding. Countersteering is a lot, but it isn't all you've got. The beauty of riding is that there are a bunch of ways to control the bike... and YOU as the rider are in control of all of them. You control the front brake and back brake, you control the countersteer and the weight distribution, you control the throttle input and the engine coupling. And, because you control all of them, you can choose a balance that works right for a particular situation. You can use one control to do one thing (e.g. bar position to turn) and another control to counter part of its effect (e.g. weight distribution to turn the other way) and have the bike leaned 15 degrees to the left while going straight.... or you can use both methods in the same direction ("knee dragging") so that the bike stands up straighter than it normally would in that sort of turn (allowing a larger contact patch).
I know the bars aren't fixed, fool It was a 'hypothetical' statement. My point is simply this: With proper understanding of countersteering, none of that other stuff is necessary. Even counterleaning/counterweighting on slow-speed stuff isn't 'necessary'. Even racers hadn't started 'hanging off' their bikes until Kenny Roberts...but I digress. I just think it's a bit irresponsible to intimate that one can significantly affect directional changes on a bike other than by steering inputs via the bars, especially when it's 'crunch time'.
dieziege wrote:The bars aren't fixed (if they were the bike would fall... don't you know how bikes stay up?) and you aren't equipped to "get on me".
Of course you can steer by shifting your weight. Try it. Get the bike up to 40 or so, take your hands off the bars, and then try to lift yourself with one foot/peg. The bike will turn. Not a super sharp turn, but enough to establish lane position or negotiate normal curves. Same is true at interstate speeds (with interestate level curves)... I tried it yesterday at 70mph and it worked fine.... though that was on an interestate where there wasn't a lot of turning to do.
People are being silly with this "there is only one way" approach to riding. Countersteering is a lot, but it isn't all you've got. The beauty of riding is that there are a bunch of ways to control the bike... and YOU as the rider are in control of all of them. You control the front brake and back brake, you control the countersteer and the weight distribution, you control the throttle input and the engine coupling. And, because you control all of them, you can choose a balance that works right for a particular situation. You can use one control to do one thing (e.g. bar position to turn) and another control to counter part of its effect (e.g. weight distribution to turn the other way) and have the bike leaned 15 degrees to the left while going straight.... or you can use both methods in the same direction ("knee dragging") so that the bike stands up straighter than it normally would in that sort of turn (allowing a larger contact patch).
I know the bars aren't fixed, fool It was a 'hypothetical' statement. My point is simply this: With proper understanding of countersteering, none of that other stuff is necessary. Even counterleaning/counterweighting on slow-speed stuff isn't 'necessary'. Even racers hadn't started 'hanging off' their bikes until Kenny Roberts...but I digress. I just think it's a bit irresponsible to intimate that one can significantly affect directional changes on a bike other than by steering inputs via the bars, especially when it's 'crunch time'.
Then why does the MSF spend so much time dealing with weight shifting?
It is all the same thing... you are trying to make the bike do what you want it to do. There are many techniques that all work together to put you in control. To say it is "irresponsible" to learn to control your bike is baffling to me. No, it isn't baffling... it is just silliness. Hanging off is hardly necessary or even germain to what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is the fact that you control the bike's direction with your feet. As well as with your hands? No... the term "as well" doesn't apply because the results are different and can even cancel each other out.
David Hough's books discuss this in some detail and point out several cases where understanding the relationship of weight distribution to steering input can be significant to safety. Is he being irresponsible to write about it? Or are you just being overzealous in espousing your Great Insight?
dieziege wrote:Then why does the MSF spend so much time dealing with weight shifting?
It is all the same thing... you are trying to make the bike do what you want it to do. There are many techniques that all work together to put you in control. To say it is "irresponsible" to learn to control your bike is baffling to me. No, it isn't baffling... it is just silliness. Hanging off is hardly necessary or even germain to what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is the fact that you control the bike's direction with your feet. As well as with your hands? No... the term "as well" doesn't apply because the results are different and can even cancel each other out.
David Hough's books discuss this in some detail and point out several cases where understanding the relationship of weight distribution to steering input can be significant to safety. Is he being irresponsible to write about it? Or are you just being overzealous in espousing your Great Insight?
No not at all...and I've read Hough's books and others as well...all I'm getting at (as far as the 'irresponsible' comment) is that there may be those that then think one can substitute for the other. At this point it's all a matter of clarity and semantics. If you revisit previous paragraphs you'll see I asked if 'weighting' was 'in addition to' and not 'instead of' as far as steering inputs....e.g., you are running a little wide in a curve, which steering input is most effective for tightening up your line? Other than that we're just beating a dead horse here.
In addition, my MSF instructors paid particular attention to 'weighting' only during slow speed maneuvers. In fact, not only did both instructors demonstrate 'different' techniques, it was also demonstrated that it wasn't 'necessary'.