Counter steering question

[jeff_connors]

I met a guy at my son's soccer game today. He has been a motorcyclist for many years. I told him that I read a lot of info on the net, etc., on motorcycles since I have only had my permit for about 3 weeks now. I told him that there is some conflicting info out there on counter steering. He said it's easy, "push right to go left, push left to go right." I told him that I had just taken a curvy road to test it...(I push right to go right and left/left. I can also turn by leaning and NOT counter steering, question to follow on that) I said that I'm a newbie but I thought he may not have been right on his counter steering. I was on my way to a dealer to look at a used Honda Spirit he had just got in. I asked the dealer and he said we are both right.

Questions:
1) It's push right to go right...right? Isn't that why it's called COUNTER steering?
2) Also, I counter steer even when I'm not thinking about it but I also lean to turn without counter steering sometimes. Any advantages to either be it safety related or other? One more efficient than the other? Thanks!!

[Optimusprime]

the idea of countersteering is to point the front tire in a direction that you are not going, ex. if the wheel points left you go right. This allows centrifugal force to hold the bike up, or rather to the outside of the turn so you can turn tighter. In order to get your wheel to turn left though you must push to the right. This is probably where your friend at the soccer game got confused. Since youve not been riding all that long I would suggest not pushing the bike hard on the twisties until you know what your doing. You can never know what road has sand on it , or some other obstacle, that you never noticed before. It is most important that you know how to act when that situation arises.

Good Luck

Shawn

[DivideOverflow]

It is pretty easy once you understand it.
push bars <---- (you are pushing on the right bar, turning the wheel left)
bike goes -----> right

I think what he was getting stuck up on is the verbage. You make your wheel go left to go right, but you are pushing with your right hand.

So, push with the right to go right, push with the left to go left.

Also, even if you dont notice it, when you lean, you are still counter steering, you still have to hold the front wheel at an angle that makes the bike turn, you just dont notice it as actively because you are focusing on the lean, instead of pushing on the bar. It doesnt change the fact that you are altering the portion of the tire that is in contact with the pavement.

[iwannadie]

try this out, find a friend to help you.

sit on your bike(engine off)
have someone stand in front of you facing you with their feet on either side of the front tire holding the tire in place firmly
you should be able to pick your feet up and let them support the bike.(have the other person use their hands to support the bike if needed, but if they have their feet straddling the front tire you should be fine)
then on the right bar press(push away from you) hard enough to cause preasure but not so much to turn the tire drastically
you should feel the bike lean to the right while the bars/tire are slightly pointing left.

this is how you would make a right turn.


oh and also its pretty much been proven you cant turn the bike simply by leaning, your counter steering and just dont realize it. check the other thread where they talk about mouting bars directly to the frame. and riders trying to lean the bike with no controll of the front tire, and the bike does Not turn at all for them.

when your body is leaning to the right off the bike, its natural for your left arm to be pulling the bar towards you which would cause a counter steer.

[poppygene]

In answer to question #1: Yes, it's push right to go right, push left to go left. That's countersteering.

#2: Lighter weight bikes are affected more by body-leaning than heavier ones, Jeff. I'm no engineer so I sure can't explain why, but heavier bikes require a lot more countersteering muscle to heel them over in turns. Leaning helps with heavier bikes, but it's not nearly enough when you're cooking along and need to really slam some big bikes down to make a turn. Of course, different bikes require different levels of input to do the same maneuver, so I suppose you should take this as generalization. Anyway, I guess the point I should make is that countersteering for most riders is infinitely more precise than shifting their weight. I think that alone would suggest you should use weight-shifting as a secondary method.

[jeff_connors]

try this out, find a friend to help you.

sit on your bike(engine off)
have someone stand in front of you facing you with their feet on either side of the front tire holding the tire in place firmly
you should be able to pick your feet up and let them support the bike.(have the other person use their hands to support the bike if needed, but if they have their feet straddling the front tire you should be fine)
then on the right bar press(push away from you) hard enough to cause preasure but not so much to turn the tire drastically
you should feel the bike lean to the right while the bars/tire are slightly pointing left.

this is how you would make a right turn.


oh and also its pretty much been proven you cant turn the bike simply by leaning, your counter steering and just dont realize it. check the other thread where they talk about mouting bars directly to the frame. and riders trying to lean the bike with no controll of the front tire, and the bike does Not turn at all for them.

when your body is leaning to the right off the bike, its natural for your left arm to be pulling the bar towards you which would cause a counter steer.

Good points! Yes, I did read that post on the bars. It sure does not feel as if I moved my arms at all. I must have when leaning even though I was making a deliberate effort NOT to move my arms. CS confused the heck out of me before I rode at all but it makes sense now that I have done it. I even notice it pulling into parking lots etc but it's more noticeable at higher speeds. Also, I have spoken with some guys that have been doing this for years and they can't explain how they steer at all, they "just do it." Good point that just because we are all experts at one thing or another, we may not be experts at teaching others. Thanks.

[JustJames]

Let me give my .02, but first of all let me tell you, I'm still a new rider only 4 months riding and 5,000 miles, almost drop the bike a couple time on twisties road, scared the hell out of myself and others behind me lol.

To answer your question "Yes" you can lean the bike with both counter steering and by leaning your body. But the differnent will play when the weight of the bike and the weight of yourself as well.

For myself 5.6' 160lbs on a V-Star 470lbs. I have pratices the series of drive to the cones with both counter steering and leaning body and also by observation and reading books

Counter Steering, I get the bike lean much faster and more lean angle.

Leaning body, The bike lean slower and wider.

On the street riding especially twisty road. You will have to use both to help you to get through the turn that why they said "Push Left, Lean Left and go Left" or "Push right, Lean right and go right". If only you do the couter steering, you might get the bike too low and scrape the peg (been there done that). if you only leaning your body, the bike might turn too wide and pretty difficult to control on tight curve (also been there done that). The best solution is Couter Steering, Leaning your body to the same direction you wanna go.

Counter Steering is not too difficult, Leaning body is even eaiser but doing both at the same time will need some pratices. If you plan on riding twisty road, I urge you to pratice more on leaning.

[iwannadie]

i still think most riders that think they are leaning to turn(and not counter steering) just dont realize they are countering. like i said before when you lean your body to the side your going to pull the oppesite bar towards you which is countering. the only way to tell is to do it no hands. i just find it hard to beleive even though all bikes are different yes, but if a very skilled rider cant get a performance bike to budge with just a lean that any casual rider can lean a turn on a regular bike. but hey i dont know just guessing.....

Let me give my .02, but first of all let me tell you, I'm still a new rider only 4 months riding and 5,000 miles, almost drop the bike a couple time on twisties road, scared the hell out of myself and others behind me lol.

To answer your question "Yes" you can lean the bike with both counter steering and by leaning your body. But the differnent will play when the weight of the bike and the weight of yourself as well.

For myself 5.6' 160lbs on a V-Star 470lbs. I have pratices the series of drive to the cones with both counter steering and leaning body and also by observation and reading books

Counter Steering, I get the bike lean much faster and more lean angle.

Leaning body, The bike lean slower and wider.

On the street riding especially twisty road. You will have to use both to help you to get through the turn that why they said "Push Left, Lean Left and go Left" or "Push right, Lean right and go right". If only you do the couter steering, you might get the bike too low and scrape the peg (been there done that). if you only leaning your body, the bike might turn too wide and pretty difficult to control on tight curve (also been there done that). The best solution is Couter Steering, Leaning your body to the same direction you wanna go.

Counter Steering is not too difficult, Leaning body is even eaiser but doing both at the same time will need some pratices. If you plan on riding twisty road, I urge you to pratice more on leaning.

[JustJames]

i still think most riders that think they are leaning to turn(and not counter steering) just dont realize they are countering. like i said before when you lean your body to the side your going to pull the oppesite bar towards you which is countering. the only way to tell is to do it no hands. i just find it hard to beleive even though all bikes are different yes, but if a very skilled rider cant get a performance bike to budge with just a lean that any casual rider can lean a turn on a regular bike. but hey i dont know just guessing.....

I didn't say that leaning body doesn't involve in Counter steering but thanks to correct me anyway. There is an attention of turning by leaning body with pay mostly attention to body or couter steering which only use muscle to push or pull handle bar which will yield different angle of leaning. Of course to turn bike gotta be counter steering weather the riders know about it or not.

[ronboskz650sr]

Okay, I love this topic...look at your tires with the bike standing still, wheels straight. Now look at where the contact patches are when you push the bar in one direction. You will offset the contact patches from the center of gravity of the bike, causing it to lean. It will lean in the direction of the side you pushed on the bars. This lean, in combination with gyroscopic precession and centripetal and centrifugal forces and a bunch of other vector theory related stuff causes the bike to turn if the wheels are spinning above a slow speed.

The wheels resist the effort of destabilizing the bike to turn it, so you must force the issue by putting the wheel patches to the side of the bikes center of gravity opposite the direction you want it to lean. After the turn is initiated, small corrections are made by the rider to maintain the lean angle, based on surface irregularities and other inputs (including over or under turning and leaning by the rider). Generally, the lean angle you set will carry the bike around a turn without further input except for the above mentioned items. You must then tell the bike to return to upright riding (straight line) when the turn is completed by making the opposite input you made to start the turn. The gyroscopic forces cause stability at whatever angle the bike is currently operating at (traction permitting), and you make the next input based on what you want to do next.

The reason heavy bikes seem to take more effort is that they often have longer wheelbases and slack steering geometries for comfort or stability reasons. If the weight is carried high, though, it may lean right over. A heavy rider can cause this, too, on an old UJM with an inline four and a high CG for example. Modern cruisers can be heavy, with low CG, and seem sluggish in turning for all these reasons.

In other words, it's a machine, you are the boss. Just tell it the right things and it will serve you well.
BTW, as you know, you are correct and the other guy has it backwards. Whew!