tesla roadster

[rapidblue]

Plus that thing has something like 6200 baterries in it. That'll be fun to replace!

AAs or Ds?

9V maybe

[ninja79]

I can see it now. Company folds in three years, you have crazy donkey environmentalists decrying its failure "OMG TEH PUBLIS IS STOOPIDS!LOL!!!" as if anyone wants to pay $100k for an electric powered Lotus Elise.

The sooner people pull their head out of their "O Ring" and get over the electric car thing the sooner we can get to the REAL alternative fuels.

Just curious, what are the "real" alternative fuels you are talking about? And if you want the public to pull its head out of its a$$, maybe you should start with yourself.

[ninja79]

"As short as 3.5 hours"

and I thing thats using 220V so it'll definitely be and overnight deal with 110V.

uhhhm.... you don't know much about electricity, do you? Stick to commenting about something you're familiar with.

Plus that thing has something like 6200 baterries in it. That'll be fun to replace!

replacing the batteries every 100000 miles is sure better than changing oil every 5000 miles.

[dieziege]

The only real alternative currently available is biodiesel. Higher efficiency of diesels, coupled with lower energy requirements to produce BD (as compared to other alternative fuels) results in an actual reduction in petroleum required to power cars (as opposed to ethanol which arguably requires more energy to produce than it returns).

However, unless biodiesel is produced from sea-farmed algae or there are serious changes in crop yield, the land cultivation requirements to produce enough biodiesel to provide for current consumption are staggering and prohibitive. Not as bad as ethanol, but still huge.

There are other alternatives in development (fuels produced from other organic base materials), but it will take a while before we even know whether they can scale to meet local demand in small areas.

I'd be fascinated to know the environmental impact of a Li-ion battery powered car... can't be good.

[ninja79]

The only real alternative currently available is biodiesel. Higher efficiency of diesels, coupled with lower energy requirements to produce BD (as compared to other alternative fuels) results in an actual reduction in petroleum required to power cars (as opposed to ethanol which arguably requires more energy to produce than it returns).

That's true in US, but Brazil manages to produce ethanol efficiently, so that it's cheaper to fill up your car with ethanol than gasoline. (BTW, that's happening *today* -- google it). I read that the only thing required to make your car work on ethanol is about $100 worth of hoses (fuel line has to be ethanol-resistant).

Further, the above applies only to conventional internal combustion engines. They burn ethanol the same way they burn gas, so they require high concentration (90%) ethanol. However, I read that ethanol fuel cells can use "wet" ethanol with as little as 50% concentration, which requires much less energy to produce.

I'd be fascinated to know the environmental impact of a Li-ion battery powered car... can't be good.

yeah, what about it?

I honestly don't understand this defeatist attitude. Every time somebody comes up with an alternative fuel vehicle, trolls come out from under the bridge and say "that sux0rss!!!!!11"

[black mariah]

You know, ninja79, you talk a lot of smack for someone that's provided precisely nothing in the way of useful statements. All you're doing is flapping your gums about how dumb we are while providing absolutely nothing to make us believe you're anything more than some 12 year old trying to act intelligent. Put up or shut up.

I say that, expecting you to do neither.

The only viable alternative fuel we have right now is biodiesel. Unfortunately, it's an alternative mired in its own stupidities. Dieziege already mentioned the crop yield problems, and that's just the start of it. Another is getting the kind of distributorship necessary to make it widely available and usable. You might be able to make it at home, but the fact is that nobody is going to do so except hippies and a few nerds.

Ethanol too has its problems. Chiefly, it's very inefficient compared to gasoline. That's something you always have to consider. Efficiency is often overlooked by alternative fuel proponents. They gloss over it like it doesn't matter. "You get half the mileage... but it's CLEAN mileage!" Like every other alternative, the distributorship is lacking at best.

BTW, Brazil just happens to be the biggest grower of sugarcane which is *far* more efficient as a biodiesel than corn is. Hence, the reason why it's so easy for Brazil to use biodiesel compared to other countries.

[dieziege]

The problem with Brazil as an example is that they are using cane sugar to produce alcohol... cane sugar grows great in Brazil. Here we are using corn subsidies, which grow great in congress. Until you are willing to let the corn farmers become bankers or burger flippers you can't get rid of the farm subsidies and farmer protections.

No, I'm not being totally serious about it... but you do have to consider what works.

Anyway, what defeatist attitude?

The reality is that electricity sucks for driving typical American-market cars. It does great on golf carts. It can be made to work for urban utility vehicles (delivery vans and the like) but it sucks for what most Americans really want. This is not news... people who cared to think about it figured out the realities of battery technology and electric cars in the '60s... and the main reality is that unless you go to extremely dangerous batteries (e.g. fluorine/zinc or something else that can be catastrophically dangerous if mishandled slightly) you can't pack the power needed to push an American-market "100 HP 250 mile range 4-door 3000lb car" into a cheap enough or small enough package to compete with even $10/gal gasoline.

Diesel is great for cars... use a urea particulate trap and they run amazingly clean, in large part because they are very efficient.

I'm a strong proponent of decentralized energy and alternate fuels. However, I think the biggest change that needs to happen is not in the energy production stage, nor in the car design/manufacturing stage... it is in the car buying and driving stage. It is in what people are happy driving.

I know quite a few people that are happy to pay $0.30 per mile just for fuel.... I wouldn't be... but they simply don't see "saving gas" as an important consideration when buying a car. Style, prestige, comfort, resale value...these matter...but not MPG. Until something changes their priorities, talk of alternative fuels and electric cars is all just outgassing.

[black mariah]

By "defeatist attitude" he means "real-world, non-utopian" attitude. Something tells me he's one of those guys that looks to other countries for answers, not realizing that what's good for one place isn't good for another. That's true even within the US. I could *EASILY* have bought a scooter in Portland and been perfectly fine because it's a very dense urban area. Here in Texas... impossible.

[ninja79]

You know, ninja79, you talk a lot of smack for someone that's provided precisely nothing in the way of useful statements. All you're doing is flapping your gums about how dumb we are while providing absolutely nothing to make us believe you're anything more than some 12 year old trying to act intelligent. Put up or shut up.

Name one thing I said above that is not true.

The only viable alternative fuel we have right now is biodiesel. Unfortunately, it's an alternative mired in its own stupidities. Dieziege already mentioned the crop yield problems, and that's just the start of it. Another is getting the kind of distributorship necessary to make it widely available and usable.

I think Tesla Roadster shows that electric car is a viable alternative. 250 mile range is *more than enough* for commuting and taking short trips (which is what people do 99% of the time). Obviously it will not take you cross country, but you can rent a gasoline car for that.

Unlike any other alternative, electric car *does not need* any new infrastructure. Electricity is already delivered to your house, so all you have to do is plug your car in at night. Tesla is exactly right: people charge their cell phones over night without even thinking how long it takes, so 3.5 hours charge time is a non-issue.

Making it into a sports car is smart. Electric motors have one very desirable property (besides very high efficiency): they delvier 100% torque at 0 RPM. This is what allows the roadster to achive 4 second 0-60 acceleration. Not bad even by sport car standards. This should put to rest the notion that electic cars are weak and underpowered. High margines of the high-end car market will also allow the company to recoup the R&D investment and hopefully come up with a mass-market car a few years down the road. I see this car as a loss-leader: obviously only the rich will buy it now (it's $80+ grand), but I fully expect the R&D to tricle down to the mass market so that we will see a $20K electric car a few years from now. And *that* is something I want and can afford to buy.

BTW, Brazil just happens to be the biggest grower of sugarcane which is *far* more efficient as a biodiesel than corn is. Hence, the reason why it's so easy for Brazil to use biodiesel compared to other countries.

Actually they don't use it for biodiesel, they make ethanol out of it. But that's not the point. The point is that Brazilians are doing something *today* about the energy problem. What are you doing? Just shouting "th4t sux0rs!!!!"?

[ninja79]

I'm a strong proponent of decentralized energy and alternate fuels. However, I think the biggest change that needs to happen is not in the energy production stage, nor in the car design/manufacturing stage... it is in the car buying and driving stage. It is in what people are happy driving.

Easy. Just sit back and wait for gasoline prices to pick up. And *pay no heed* to the "ZOMG!!!111 It COSTS ME $100 TO FILL UP MY SUBURBAN!!!!!!111" crowd. Let the market forces do their thing, and you'll be surprised how quickly the buying patterns will shift. Already sales of SUVs are down 40% in Canada. Think about it: 40% and we are still nowhere near $10/gallon levels. (I believe we'll get there by the end of the decade).