OS Choice - Linux, BSDs, or Windows, they all work fine!

[Skier]

Windows is the Operating System for people who just want their computers to work. Linux requires you to actually pay attention to what you are doing; one wrong click and you just effed your system up because it's open source.

Now this is humorous.

[MrShake]

Its good to see you've given up. You've realised that your wrong. Works for me. Please continue to use your OS of choice. If you make unfounded blanket statements, I will be there to disprove them.

NEXT

Wow, you're being incredibly rude over the whole thing.

It's really sad to see someone so blinded by fanboyism.

I'll continue to use Linux and Windows on a daily basis where appropriate. You can continue to yell at anyone who disagrees with you.

It'll be OK. I'll think about you next time I'm editing a config file for someone. BTW, I hope you like my new sig!

Your absolutely right, I am being rude, but sometimes it takes a blunt statement to get someone to listen, and aparently that doesn't work for you. You've now decided to make a blatantly flase statement about linux dvd as your general signature. You learn nothing.

[Nalian]

Ok,
Since at least two of you seem to think you know better than "fanboy" mrshake, lets see you prove yourselfs, because I don't believe you can.

Uh - what? First of all, no one here needs to "prove" themselves to you. Way to start a thread off on the wrong foot. I am getting the impression that my hopes for an intelligent discussion were way too high-reaching.

Mr Shake: given that I use linux for 90% of my personal computing time and 100% of my work time..I don't think I'm missing anything.

I don't care how much you USE linux personally or professionally. I use linux 100% in personal computing, 0% at my day job, and 90% in my personally owned buisness. It doesn't matter, you are still completely missing my point, despite me saying it over and over!

I would think that in a discussion about operating systems and their strong points, you would want to know how much or how little someone uses the OS. If someone hasn't used it at all, their opinion doesn't merit much weight. You may want to rethink that feeling. Apparently, your point hasn't been stated clearly, apparently. Please, clearly and concisely state it. Oh wait..

My point, as I've made over and over, that you are missing, is that linux is a choice, and, if the average user (read 99% of) were to be given a linux machine in the same state they were given a windows machine (read: OS installed with compatible hardware), they would have NO ISSUES using linux. Thats why I applaud Dell for being a Tier 1 OEM linux provider. Your aparently "missing" that point entirely and depending on weak arguments such as "you have to use windows emulator" or "my sound didn't work"

So let me get this straight. I said:

Dude, I love ubuntu as much as the next linux geek (it's my distro of choice for non-servers) - but to say it's ready as a full windows replacement is just not true. For those who are technically-abled and willing to muddle through documentation..sure. For 'everyone' - f no. The only *nix that is ready for that is OS X, because Apple has figured out how to make the complicated things easy for people who don't need to waste time figuring out how computers work, and just need them to do what they're supposed to.

Playing games under windows emulators sucks donkey balls, too.

Maybe in another year or two when they have a lot of the quirks ironed out. But until then, you still have to go digging into the guts of the OS to fix what should be relatively minor things.

That being said you can absolutely view DVDs natively on linux without breaking any legality laws. I do it all the time.

Your point is linux is a choice, and if you use specific hardware and don't want to play games or overly complicated stuff with office, then its easy, Where is the conflict? Are you not reading what I'm writing? Seriously - the fact that you think I'm "fighting" with you is pretty mind boggling at this point.

Walking a 60 year old man through the process of unmounting a drive via CLI is a huge pain in the butt. Having to compile source code drivers and edit text configuration files just to get sound to work is a huge pain in the butt.

Try to walk that same 60 year old man through the process of unmounting a drive in windows using their basic admin guis. Or, the next time you CAN'T find a driver because the hardware is unsupported in VISTA, or is to old. Or, the next time you CAN'T change the setting you want in windows because its greyed out to protect you.

Actually - you wouldn't have to walk a user through unmounting a drive on Windows. There's never a need to unmount a drive to shut things off, or get rid of a CD-Rom, etc. I'm gathering this is just retread information for you given how much you use linux, right?

The rest of your argument about drivers can very well apply to linux too, so I'm going to leave that stuff where it lies.

People PAY IT professionals to fix these kinds of problems. They don't do it themselfs. People PAY for computers that already have the OS and software installed. What people DON'T commonly do, is buy a computer, then install an os, then install aftermarket parts, then install various software. And, if they were to do the same with windows, they would be fraught with the same type of problems. Incompatable hardware, bad drivers, hard configurations, and yes, even SOUND THAT DOESN'T WORK.

The entire computer hardware aftermarket disagrees with you. People are not buying new ram and video cards, external harddrives and new sound cards because they expect to have problems. And tons of people install these things every day without problem - or these hardware vendors would be out of business. An acceptable loss to most vendors for this stuff is very slim - around 8%. More than that, and engineers start getting taken to task. People install harddrives onto systems regardless of the OS every day. The majority of hardware installed on windows boxes when we're not in a new OS year does actually work. Having worked for hardware vendors in the past - I can attest to that with lots and lots of personal experience. We are accepting personal experience in this discussion, right? Especially given that all of your 'argument' is based off of personal experience.

This is my last word on the subject. When it "just works," and all your hardware is supported out of the box, and all the software you may ever need is listed in the package manager, then, yes, Linux works great, despite the fact that X and most window managers aren't quite as stable as Windows + Explorer. Linux greatly outclasses Windows as a server OS, and Linux is highly serviceable and usable as a desktop OS for the user who wants to invest a lot of time and energy into learning the system, but Linux offers typical users absolutely nothing over Windows and typical problems that users run into are much more difficult to solve in Linux than Windows.

You are a fool to think that windows "just works". That is the biggest fallacy in the computer world. Windows works because OEMS design their PREBUILT systems to work with it. Aftermarket parts and white-box built computers will have problems with linux, very true, but they also will have problems with windows.

No, the biggest fallacy of the computer world is designing things in such a fashion that we have to train people how to use it, rather than creating the computers and systems a lot more intuitively. However I think that's a bit high-level for this discussion.

As for Windows not "just working" - now you're being silly. The majority of the time, it does just work. Are there issues? ABSOLUTELY! Just as there are issues with any OS where you let a user touch it. If you're going to put the constraint on the Linux system being a fine replacement for the user if you control the hardware and software that you put on the box - then you have to give the same constraint to Windows.

I will state this again...

Linux is a choice

It is NOT right for everyone, in every situation. Neither is Windows.
It is FREE to TRY (hence, a choice) linux. Because of Live CDs, you can try linux without harming your current setup. No harddrive formatting or repartitioning, no saved files, no problem. If you don't like it, who cares. If you do, your now starting down a new path, and that is, in no way, a bad thing.

Uhm - so you basically restated what I did in another thread...but what you said is right, and what I said is wrong. OK then!

Anyone who continues to bash Linux with the same old, tired, unfounded arguments that have been used for years, has missed out on what linux has to offer. I am living proof that linux runs STABLE (250+ days online with no desktop crashes, stalls, hangups, bluescreens), can replace all the tasks I was doing in Windows (every single one), is upgradeable, dependable, flexible, and, my favorite part... free of cost.

Who was bashing Linux? I said it's not a mainstream replacement for Windows. That is my opinion. Perhaps you need to calm down a little.

Congratulations on managing to have your systems up for so long. Call me when you hit the multple year mark. It's nice that you don't do anything that requires you to be on Windows, I'm sure that helps you sleep at night.

For me, I'm going to choose the OS which has the superior software for the task I am doing. That means when I'm drawing/video editing/game playing, etc in my house, I am going to use Windows. Linux does not have the wacom support nor the video suites that are easy to use and do what I want without hassle - if it even does what I want! Linux is definitely not a good choice for graphics creation at this point, the software has a long way to go..

Now my challenge to the two whom have already played the "I'm a linux expert but..." card. Show me PROOF that what I am saying is wrong. And when I say proof, I dont mean "this one time, I had a sound card that didn't work" I mean, proof that if an OEM purchased Linux computer were used by the average user, they would have problems.

GO, you can't win.

Proof that what you said is wrong? You haven't said anything yet. You run Linux. Bully for you. You can use it for everything you do, and you think that it's a great choice for users. Who is going to argue with that?

But, hey, since you asked, maybe the guy who created Ubuntu is "proof" enough for you? From a wall street journal article: "Mark Shuttleworth, the South African-born founder of the Ubuntu project, told me this week that “it would be reasonable to say that this is not ready for the mass market.”

And hey - from the same article: "And Dell’s Web site for its Ubuntu computers warns that these machines are for “for advanced users and tech enthusiasts.”.

Read the article in full here: Click me!

BTW - the Ubuntu on Dell setup doesn't even meet the guidelines you've set. The, don't change the hardware or the software guidelines, that is. Dell doesn't ship Ubuntu with WINE or any other windows emulator.

Hey here's more fun with what should be basic - again only using Dell and Ubuntu: http://www.starryhope.com/dell/2007/rev ... th-ubuntu/

Gee - he has the same wireless issues that I mentioned before that also seem to plague the Ubuntu user forums. The same thing I brought up that you seemed to think was an one-off issue.

Bottom line is - use the right OS for the job. Don't try and play out any OS as the "one ring to rule them all" and you won't be lying. Claim anything else and..well. Heh.

[Nalian]

MrShake: where on earth did you get that OS X is all closed source? Parts of it are closed, certainly, but it uses a lot of open source and they're attempting to integrate more every day: http://developer.apple.com/opensource/index.html

[jonnythan]

From that Ubuntu-on-Dell review:


"but I still needed to install extra software and edit configuration files to make anything work."

"I’ve heard that it is possible to use the w810i as a modem in Linux, but with no graphical interface for these type of connections, it’s not very useful for the average user."

"NetworkManager has problems connecting to WEP encrypted networks. Lack of good WEP support is annoying and severely limits Ubuntu’s ability to connect to public access points."

"Getting a microphone to work was not quite so easy."

"Ubuntu and Dell have not included an audio mixer for adjusting the input volume. I needed to hunt through the Synaptic package manager for a mixer and install it before I could get the microphone volume loud enough to make Skype calls."

"It would be nice if Dell included ... DVD software capable of playing commercial DVDs without installing software of questionable legality"

"Trying to use 3D applications such as 3D screensavers or enabling Desktop Effects (aka Compiz) will instantly freeze the window manager and leave you with little choice but to forcibly power down the computer. Even the external monitor port (VGA) does not work!"

"This is the age-old story of poor Linux driver support for new hardware"

"The hibernate and suspend functions worked well out of the box. However, after a few hours of use, these functions stopped working ... Trying either of these functions completely freezes the OS"

Closing words:

"The way it is now, I wouldn’t recommend this notebook for anyone who’s not a seasoned Linux geek."

This pretty much mirrors my exact statements on the matter so far. Sure, Linux is great and excellent and blah blah blah.... but it's just not a choice for people who don't want to deal with the BS outlined above.

[Nalian]

It would be really nice if you could get something equivalent to the package manager in Ubuntu for Windows though, eh? They've certainly gotten a lot of things right and I have high expectations for them as a result of the gutsy release.

[Kibagari]

MrShake, thanks for correcting me. What I stated was based purely out of opinion. I stated nowhere that what I said was fact. To build on this, you should always take what someone else is saying with a grain of salt (especially the internet). Because we all know the best way to make someone see your point of view is to call them names and be rude. Yes, that's true people skills right there. Congratulations.

I'll admit that I am ignorant in many aspects as I don't sit in front of a machine as a profession. I apologize for not being completely educated on the subject; and will therefore keep my nose out of such discussions.

Your pomposity is appreciated.

[Nalian]

MrShake, thanks for correcting me. What I stated was based purely out of opinion. I stated nowhere that what I said was fact. To build on this, you should always take what someone else is saying with a grain of salt (especially the internet). I'll admit that I am ignorant in many aspects as I don't sit in front of a machine as a profession. I apologize for not being completely educated on the subject; and will therefore keep my nose out of such discussions.

Your pomposity is appreciated.

Please don't - the only thing you did was very mildly exaggerate how easy it is to screw up a linux OS. I think these discussions are interesting, but much less so if there are too few people involved.

Besides, you're right. Once you get down to the linux CLI, your whole world can be blown up. The command line is really where it's all at.

[jonnythan]

It would be really nice if you could get something equivalent to the package manager in Ubuntu for Windows though, eh? They've certainly gotten a lot of things right and I have high expectations for them as a result of the gutsy release.

It would be, but, really... there's *so much* Windows software out there, and it's *so* easy to download and install thanks to MSIEXEC that it's not worth the trouble.

The day you can download a single executable file that will install a piece of software onto any Linux machine will be quite a day indeed.

But that will never happen.

[MrShake]

Finally, you guys are coming out to play.

Now, Granted I need to have more at work to do besides post rants on unrelated topics, but such is the way my job currently plays out.

I'm going to refrain from a point-by-point trouncing of Nalian's post and get back to the topic at hand.

OEM to OEM

The REASON for OEM to OEM discussion is that it levels the playing field. Nalian, you are right, hundreds of people install aftermarket hardware every day. My ENTIRE home computer is aftermarket (which, by the way, works flawlessly with ubuntu wihout extra configuration and has for 2 releases of ubuntu). But, that hundreds, or even thousands, doesn't even equal 10%, 5% or even 1% of the computer user market, so, in the essence of talking about this subject, we need to talk about majority.

NOW, back to the discussion as I've set forth (since it is my topic). OEM to OEM, or Apples to Apples. Lets even take specific OEM, Dell, out of the equation. Lets even define more, to level the playing field.


If I go buy an Windows Computer from a Store or Buisness. I expect to get it home with an OS that works, hardware that is installed and working, and no problems when I boot and use the machine. That DOES happen. Good for windows OEMS

If I go buy and Linux Computer from a Store or Buisness. I expect to get it home with an OS that works, hardware that is installed and working, and no problems when I boot and use the machine. That DOES happen. Good for linux OEMS.

The comparison has to start from there to be fair. Thats really the only way. We can go on all day about how this piece of hardware didn't work for me in X OS. Example: Jonnythan's sound card or my blackberry. His didn't work in linux, mine didn't work in windows.

What my ROOT issue is (pun intended) is that I, personally, will not stand for people making unfounded general statements. This ALL Started when I nonchalantly mentioned linux, someone asked a question, I answered with ABSOLUTE TRUTH and gave a positive option. Then, out of the blue, someone decided to make statements such as "Linux is Terrible" or "The average person should not use linux". Neither of these BASE Statements is true, factual, or based in anything other than personal bias.
My original post, while admittedly biased, was BASED on, "Hey, I like this OS, its free to try, here is how, and here is why I like it". I have not, EVER in any of this discussion EVER said "Windows is Terrible" or "The average person should not use windows".

I'm coming with free choice and honest opnions and statements, and all I get in return is blanket negativity tword my innocent sugestion.

My guess is that the person I was originally speaking to with my suggestion of linux will never try it. In part because of all of your negative comments, and in part because I acted a fool in defending it. But we should ALL be ashamed that we may have suppressed someones free will and choice with our statements.

So, if you want to continue to discuss this. Lets use the level playing field. I've put it out there. My computer works flawlessly. I never have to edit config files or compile from source to continue to do the things I do on my pc.

I do want to mention, though its off kilter for the playing field, that despite my lack of NEED to edit those things on my pc, that does not make the fact that I CAN a bad thing. Not for me, and not for a potential user. I can easily make a customer of mine a custom system to their specifications with more performance and reliability than I ever could with windows. That is because of my comfort level with linux. I can provide that for customers, and they never have to see the "evils" of the cli.

Thoughts guys, on the level playing field? I've tried to make this as generic as possible so you guys don't latch on endlessly to CSS encription or Dell reviews