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HYPERR wrote:When clutchless upshifts are done properly using the technique I that posted, the upshifts will be ultra smooth and slick that the gear will literally snick right into next gear almost silently.

Unless something goes wrong, then it's BOOM

Johnj wrote:

HYPERR wrote:When clutchless upshifts are done properly using the technique I that posted, the upshifts will be ultra smooth and slick that the gear will literally snick right into next gear almost silently.

Unless something goes wrong, then it's BOOM

How do you figure?

HYPERR wrote:

Johnj wrote:

HYPERR wrote:When clutchless upshifts are done properly using the technique I that posted, the upshifts will be ultra smooth and slick that the gear will literally snick right into next gear almost silently.

Unless something goes wrong, then it's BOOM

How do you figure?

Did you not see what Sev Posted? There's even pictures!

Brackstone wrote:

HYPERR wrote:

Johnj wrote:

HYPERR wrote:When clutchless upshifts are done properly using the technique I that posted, the upshifts will be ultra smooth and slick that the gear will literally snick right into next gear almost silently.

Unless something goes wrong, then it's BOOM

How do you figure?

Did you not see what Sev Posted? There's even pictures!

That's why I asked him what happened.

As I stated before, properly done clutchless upshifts causes no damage whatsoever to the tranny and it obviously none to the clutch. It is also much smoother than a normal clutched shifts.

For something to happen like the tranny in the pics, as well like you said, "BOOM", something very drastic occured. Botched clutchless upshifts usually results in the bike going into false neutral and that's about it. Not much different from a botched clutched up-shift.

yes, something drastic did happen. dude tried upshifting without using the clutch. boom

"proper" usage or not, you run the risk of blowing your trans everytime you shift without using the clutch

Big B wrote:yes, something drastic did happen. dude tried upshifting without using the clutch. boom

"proper" usage or not, you run the risk of blowing your trans everytime you shift without using the clutch

I will wait for his answer but as I said, botched clutchless upshift either results in a false neutral or the bike staying in the same gear. It does not bang into next gear blowing it up into smithereens.

If you botch a upshift(clutched or clutch-less) at full throttle past redline, on a bike with no rev limiter, yes you can have a "BOOM" as you say.

I am however talking about perfectly executed smooth clutchless upshifts under normal riding condition. All I'm saying is that once mastered, it is a great technique to add to your arsenal as it makes riding more enjoyable and smoother, and yes it causes less wear and tear than clutched upshifts.

Under extreme riding conditions at high rate of speed or near redline, I do feather the clutch just to the friction point.

HYPERR wrote:

Brackstone wrote:

HYPERR wrote:

Johnj wrote:

HYPERR wrote:When clutchless upshifts are done properly using the technique I that posted, the upshifts will be ultra smooth and slick that the gear will literally snick right into next gear almost silently.

Unless something goes wrong, then it's BOOM

How do you figure?

Did you not see what Sev Posted? There's even pictures!

That's why I asked him what happened.

As I stated before, properly done clutchless upshifts causes no damage whatsoever to the tranny and it obviously none to the clutch. It is also much smoother than a normal clutched shifts.

For something to happen like the tranny in the pics, as well like you said, "BOOM", something very drastic occured. Botched clutchless upshifts usually results in the bike going into false neutral and that's about it. Not much different from a botched clutched up-shift.

What do you think happens when you hit a false neutral. The gears get stuck half way between engaged and not. The dogs are slamming into each other, and you're quickly wearing down the metal. 2nd gear was VERY common to go in this manner on older 600 ninjas.

Regardless, what happens is you have the gear dogs rounding off, and eventually a section takes too much damage, and snaps off. At that point you've got a shard of metal floating around a constant mesh gear box. And you PRAY that it falls into the sump and misses getting lodged between the teeth.

The above guy... wasn't so lucky. Shard of metal ended up between two gears and he needed a new transmission and engine cases.

I won't cluchless upshift or downshift, even on my race bikes. If someone is paying you 10 million a year to win races then "fudge" yeah, get out there and forget the clutch, you'll pick up a couple tenths of a second. But for the rest of us... well like I said it's your engine.

Sev wrote:

HYPERR wrote:

Brackstone wrote:

HYPERR wrote:

Johnj wrote:

HYPERR wrote:When clutchless upshifts are done properly using the technique I that posted, the upshifts will be ultra smooth and slick that the gear will literally snick right into next gear almost silently.

Unless something goes wrong, then it's BOOM

How do you figure?

Did you not see what Sev Posted? There's even pictures!

That's why I asked him what happened.

As I stated before, properly done clutchless upshifts causes no damage whatsoever to the tranny and it obviously none to the clutch. It is also much smoother than a normal clutched shifts.

For something to happen like the tranny in the pics, as well like you said, "BOOM", something very drastic occured. Botched clutchless upshifts usually results in the bike going into false neutral and that's about it. Not much different from a botched clutched up-shift.

What do you think happens when you hit a false neutral. The gears get stuck half way between engaged and not. The dogs are slamming into each other, and you're quickly wearing down the metal. 2nd gear was VERY common to go in this manner on older 600 ninjas.

Regardless, what happens is you have the gear dogs rounding off, and eventually a section takes too much damage, and snaps off. At that point you've got a shard of metal floating around a constant mesh gear box. And you PRAY that it falls into the sump and misses getting lodged between the teeth.

The above guy... wasn't so lucky. Shard of metal ended up between two gears and he needed a new transmission and engine cases.

I won't cluchless upshift or downshift, even on my race bikes. If someone is paying you 10 million a year to win races then "fudge" yeah, get out there and forget the clutch, you'll pick up a couple tenths of a second. But for the rest of us... well like I said it's your engine.

This is getting to be a circular argument. I keep stating that a properly done clutchless shifting causes no wear and tear to the drivetrain. And a couple of you guys keep bringing up extreme examples of repeated instances of botched shifting(clutched or clutchless).

Quite frankly the odds of me(or any experienced rider for that matter) botching an upshift, whether clutchless or clutched is just about zero. In fact, i feel the odds are even less if I am doing it without a clutch. I don't do clutchless upshifts all the time. Sometimes I will just quickly fan the clutch, and other times I will just take it to the friction zone. Regardless, I cannot remember the last time I botched an upshift.

I don't do clutchless upshifts to improve my time on the track or on the drag strip. It's just one of those things that I do because it results in a satisfying super silky snick of an upshift. Almost "electric-like" as described by the guys at Sport Rider magazine.

I am quite surpised at the strong opposition to clutchless upshift on this forum, albeit it's only a few of you. This technique has been discussed in many other forums and it has always brought the same conclusion as I have. This is the first time I have ever saw such harsh(actually any) criticism of this technique.

Clutchless Upshift is not some voodoo art that I or other riders follow. It is a valid and proven technique as supported by every single major motorcyle magazine(Cycle World, Motorcylist, Motorcyle Consumer News, Sports Rider, etc etc). It is taught and advocated by Kevin Schwantz at his racing school for use at the track as well as on the street. If you are not going to take my word for it you can take the words of all these guys who are lot more knowledgeable than you or I.

I still have not gotten a response to my original question of "what happened?" in that photo. If you are going to tell me that the guy simply botched an upshift while riding his bike one afternoon and it resulted in blowing the unitcase to smithereen, I have a hard time buying that. Apparently this is not your own motorcyle? Do you know this person and what actually happened?

And why are you lumping clutchless upshifts along with clutchless downshifts? They are two completely different animals. I clearly stated that clutchless downshifts should not be done.

And yes it is your bike and your engine, you ride and enjoy it the way you want. However you are going one step further and discrediting a very valid technique. Any technique whether it be countersteering, steering by pushing down on the pegs, lofting the front over obstacles off-road, can and may result in harm to you and the bike if botched.

I can post plethoras of links(all totally valid from extremely credible sources) that all support my advocating of clutchless upshifts. I can post just as many links that explain from an engineering standpoint on the unique characteristic of a motorcyle transmission and why clutchless upshift work so easily and smoothly on motorcyles but not on cars. I, however am not going to do that as people just don't read links like that when posted on forums. If someone is truly interested, they will simply do a google search on their own.

I don't really know if we are totally oil and water on this argument or we are just misunderstanding each other....

My points in a nutshell are:

1. Clutchless upshifts when done properly causes no extra wear and tear on the transmission and obviously causes no wear and tear on the clutch.

2. Clutchless upshifts when done properly results in a ultra silky "electric" like upshifts which is extremely satisfying. When done properly is even smoother than any clutched uupshifts will ever be.

3. When done by a competent rider on the proper machine, clutchless upshifts are just about impossible to botch and the likelihood of a botched upshift is even less than on a clutched upshift.

Dude in 'A Perfect World' Kevin Costner is running from the law with a little kid wearing a Casper mask in the back seat.

A clutch less up shift doesn't save you that much time and no ones perfect. Even experienced competent riders on the right machine will occasionally make a mistake. If you're ok with the risk of having a fubared transmission that's cool. Personally, I only do it on the track, but I tear my engine apart at the end of every season to inspect, adjust and ensure that everythings ok. It's one of the joys of winter. Of course this is the bike that I don't mind laying down at 100+ mph with it's amazing salvaged title and it being a purpose built bike... my street bikes get clutched shifts all the time b/c really what's the point?