seriously, motorcyle vs. scooter - non-tech differences

[bikerguy]

...

well said

[ranger l]

Mike said, "many riding the 50cc scooters do not need a motorcycle licence (a car one works in Canada) thus no training on 2 wheels is required and gear is optional at best", but haven't they recently "fixed" this in Ontariario by closing the loophole?
Is it just 2 wheelers with gas engines and no pedals?
I think I've seen electric scooters and mo-peds being ridden without any gear.

[totalmotorcycle]

Mike said, "many riding the 50cc scooters do not need a motorcycle licence (a car one works in Canada) thus no training on 2 wheels is required and gear is optional at best", but haven't they recently "fixed" this in Ontariario by closing the loophole?
Is it just 2 wheelers with gas engines and no pedals?
I think I've seen electric scooters and mo-peds being ridden without any gear.

Sorry, I was unaware of the rule change in Ontario. I did some research and found this:

Licence for limited-speed motorcycle (LSM) and moped drivers

A restricted Class M licence permits the licence holder to operate only a:
•limited-speed motorcycle (motor scooter) and
•motor-assisted bicycle (moped)

Moped drivers have to hold a Class M licence or the restricted Class M licence to operate their moped. You need to pass a written test and complete both the M1 and M2 road tests and, if successful, you will receive a driver's licence that allows you to operate a limited-speed motorcycle (motor scooter) and moped only.

M1 Licence

The holder of an M1 licence will be able to operate a limited-speed motorcycle, moped or full-speed motorcycle. At the time of booking your M1 road test, you must decide which type of vehicle you will use on the day of your road test, as it will determine which licence you get. The M1 licence must be held at least 60 days before you are eligible to attempt the M1 road test. The M1 licence will be valid for 90 days. M1 holders cannot drink alcohol, drive at night, carry passengers or drive on controlled-access highways.

Restricted M2 licence with L condition

The holder of an M1 licence who successfully completes their M1 road test on a limited-speed motorcycle or moped will receive a restricted M2 licence. The holder of a restricted M2 licence will be able to operate a limited-speed motorcycle or moped only. The restricted M2 licence must be held for 22 months (18 months if taking a ministry approved motorcycle safety course) before taking your M2 road test. Holders of a restricted M2 licence cannot drive on controlled-access highways (e.g., 400 series highways, the Queen Elizabeth Way, the Queensway in Ottawa and the Kitchener-Waterloo Expressway). Holders of a restricted M2 licence cannot drink alcohol and moped operators cannot carry passengers. (limited-speed motorcycle drivers may carry passengers at this stage but it is not recommended).

Restricted M licence with L condition

The holder of an M2 licence who successfully completes their M2 road test on a limited-speed motorcycle or moped will receive a restricted M licence. The holder of a restricted M licence will be able to operate a limited-speed motorcycle or moped only. Holders of a restricted M licence cannot drive on controlled-access highways (e.g., 400 series highways, the Queen Elizabeth Way, the Queensway in Ottawa and the Kitchener-Waterloo Expressway). Moped operators cannot carry passengers.

Vehicle Descriptions

Limited-speed motorcycle (motor scooter)

In Regulation 340/94,made under the Ontario Highway Traffic Act, a limited-speed motorcycle (LSM) is described as:
a. a motorcycle that: ◦ can attain a rate of speed of more than 32 km/hr on level ground within a distance of 1.6 kilometres from a standing start,
◦ has a maximum attainable speed of 70 km/hr or less,
◦ has steering handlebars that are completely constrained from rotating in relation to the axle of only one wheel in contact with the ground,
◦ has a minimum seat height, when the vehicle is unladen, of 650 millimetres
◦ has a minimum wheel rim diameter of 250 millimetres and a minimum wheelbase of 1016 millimetres
◦ has a maximum engine displacement of 50 cubic centimetres or less, or

b. if the motorcycle was manufactured on, or after, September 1, 1988, it must have affixed a compliance label required under the Motor Vehicle Safety Act (Canada) that identifies the motor vehicle as a limited-speed motorcycle.

The definition under the Motor Vehicle Safety Act (Canada) is the same as above but does not have a minimum attainable speed or a maximum engine displacement. See section 1 (1) of the Ontario Highway Traffic Act for full definition.

Motor-Assisted Bicycle (Moped)

Under the Highway Traffic Act, a motor-assisted bicycle is a bicycle that:
• is fitted with pedals that are operable at all times to propel the bicycle,
• weighs 55 kilograms or less,
• has no hand or foot operated clutch or gearbox driven by the motor and transferring power to the driven wheel,
• has a piston displacement of not more that 50 cubic centimeters, and
• does not attain a speed greater than 50 km/hr on level ground within a distance of 2 km from a standing start


Operator's Licence

What you will need to drive a limited-speed motorcycle or moped in Ontario

You must be at least 16 years of age and have a new restricted class M licence for limited-speed motorcycles and mopeds (class M2 with L condition or M with L condition) or a valid motorcycle licence (class M1, M2 or M) to drive either a limited-speed motorcycle or moped on public roads in Ontario.
The vehicle must be insured, registered and have a valid licence plate. The operator must wear an approved motorcycle helmet.

"L" Condition

The "M licence with L condition" allows the operation of limited-speed motorcycles and mopeds only. Limited-speed motorcycle/moped owners may take their road tests on their LSM/moped to obtain the M-licence with "L" condition.

The restriction is indicated as "L" on the licence card. The back of the licence card describes the restriction:

Did you know that moped collisions have risen?

Road testing for mopeds is expected to improve moped driver safety. Ontario's most recent statistics show that moped collisions from 1999 to 2003 more than doubled (from 48 to 102) while the number of registered mopeds fell by almost one third (from 3,006 to 2,019) in the same period.

From 2002 to 2003, the number of injury collisions involving mopeds rose 33 per cent. The rate of collisions involving motorcycles and mopeds in 2003 indicated mopeds were three times more likely to be involved in collisions than motorcycles.

Moped drivers are in a high-risk zone for collisions and we would encourage moped drivers to review the rules of the road often which are available on the ministry's website and the official Motorcycle and Driver's Handbooks.

New moped drivers are required to pass a written test and complete both the M1 and M2 road tests and, if successful, will receive a driver's licence that allows you to operate a limited-speed motorcycle (motor scooter) and moped only.

Road tests for Limited-Speed Motorcycles (LSMs) and Mopeds

Drivers can take the road test on a limited-speed motorcycle or moped and receive a driver's licence for the operation of this type of vehicle only.

The type of M licence issued will be based on the type of vehicle used for the road test:
• If you bring an LSM or moped for the M1 road test and pass this test, you will be issued a restricted M2 licence with an "L" condition.
• If you bring a LSM or moped for the M2 road test and pass this test, you will be issued a restricted M licence with an "L" condition.
• If you bring a full-speed motorcycle for the M1 road test and pass this test, you will be issued a Class M2 licence, which allows you to operate a motorcycle, a limited-speed motorcycle and a moped.
• If you bring a full-speed motorcycle for the M2 road test and pass this test, you will be issued a Class M licence, which allows you to operate a motorcycle, a limited-speed motorcycle and a moped.

M1 Road Test for LSMs and Mopeds

The M1 road test for LSMs and mopeds is the same as the M1 road test for motorcycles. The test will be completed mainly on a DriveTest site and the applicant will be required to complete a three-part motorcycle skill test, including driving through sets of cones to test manoeuvring skills.

The restricted M1 licence must be held at least 60 days before applicants are eligible to attempt the M1 road test. The M1 licence is valid for 90 days. Remember, if you take the road test on your motor scooter or moped, you will receive a driver's licence that allows you to operate these types of vehicles only. If you take the road test on a motorcycle, you will receive a driver's licence that allows you to operate a motorcycle, LSM and moped.

Booking your M1 Road Test

Important: Applicants should decide what type of motorcycle licence they need and bring in the appropriate vehicle to do the road tests. The applicant will be informed prior to booking that if a limited-speed motorcycle with a maximum speed of 70 km/hr or a moped is used for a road test, then a restricted M2 licence will be issued, allowing them to operate that vehicle type only.

M2 Road Test for LSMs and Mopeds

The M2 road test for LSMs and mopeds is the same as the M2 road test for motorcycles with the exception of the freeway portion of the test, which has been omitted. You will be required to complete the business section of the road test on a roadway with a posted speed limit of 50 km/hr.

Important: Your LSM or moped must be capable of maintaining a safe speed on the 50km/hr road to complete the test. Before the road test can begin, you will be required to sign a declaration on the M2 Examination form that your LSM or moped is capable of maintaining a safe speed on a 50 km/hr road. If you are unable to sign the declaration, your road test will be cancelled and you may be charged half of your test fee. The safe speed may vary depending on road and traffic conditions. The examiner will give you directions through a disposable earphone and, as you complete the tasks, the examiner will watch to make sure you successfully perform the skills that are required in the road test.

The restricted M2 licence must be held for 22 months (18 months if taking a ministry approved motorcycle) before taking your M2 road test.

Important: If you take the road test on your motor scooter or moped, you will receive a driver's licence that allows you to operate these types of vehicles only. If you take the road test on a motorcycle, you will receive a driver's licence that allows you to operate a motorcycle, LSM and moped.

Booking your M2 Road Test

Important: To book an M2 road test, applicants are required to indicate if the test will be taken with an LSM, moped or motorcycle. If you said you were going to bring in a full-speed motorcycle but you bring in a limited-speed motorcycle, you will forfeit half of your road test fee. The automated on-line and telephone booking systems will inform and instruct applicants about booking an LSM or moped test.

Graduated Licensing

Graduated Licensing applies to drivers of limited-speed motorcycles and mopeds

Like standard motorcycle drivers, new drivers applying for their limited-speed motorcycle or moped licence will enter Ontario's graduated licensing system. You must be at least 16 years of age and pass a vision test and a test of your knowledge of the rules of the road and traffic signs. After you pass these tests, you will enter Level One and get an M1 licence. You must pass two road tests to become fully licensed on a limited-speed motorcycle or moped. Passing the first road test lets you move to Level Two (class M2 with L condition). Passing the second road test gives you the restricted class M driving privileges.




Level One
(Class M1)
• Level One lasts a minimum of 60 days
• M1 licence is valid for 90 days
• No drinking alcohol -- your blood alcohol level must be zero
• You must drive only during daylight hours (one-half hour before sunrise to one-half hour after sunset)
• You must not drive on roads with speed limits of more than 80km/hr, except Highways 11, 17, 61, 69, 71, 101, 102, 144, and 655. In addition, local municipalities can ban mopeds from roads in their jurisdiction where the speed limit is 80 km or greater.
• You cannot carry passengers


Level Two
(Class M2 with L restriction)
• Level Two lasts a minimum of 22 months. An M2 licence is valid for 5 years. If you pass a ministry approved motorcycle safety course, you can reduce the time spent at Level Two by four months.
• No drinking alcohol -- your blood alcohol level must be zero
• You may not drive your limited-speed motorcycle or moped on high-speed roads such as the 400 series highways, the Queen Elizabeth Way, the Queensway in Ottawa and the Kitchener-Waterloo Expressway.
• Local municipalities can ban mopeds from roads in their jurisdiction where the speed limit is 80 km or greater.
• Mopeds are prohibited from carrying passengers
• Limited-speed motorcycles can carry passengers but is not recommended


LSM plate

A distinct licence plate is available to all limited-speed motorcycles registered after March 27, 2006. The plate is the same size as the motorcycle plate but is green with white lettering. LSMs that are newly plated after March 27, 2006 will have the LSM plate. The fees are the same as for motorcycle plates - $20.00 for the plate and $42.00 to validate and renew each year. Moped and motorcycle plates remain the same.


How can I tell if my vehicle is a limited-speed motorcycle?

The easiest way to identify if your vehicle is a limited-speed motorcycle is by the label. The label is usually fastened to the steering column or under the seat. Look beside "type of vehicle" and it will say LSM/MVL. All newer models of LSMs and mopeds have a label for ease of identification.

If the vehicle was manufactured on, or after, September 1, 1988, it must have affixed a compliance label required under the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Act (Canada) that identifies the motor vehicle as a limited-speed motorcycle.

If the vehicle was manufactured before September 1, 1988 and does not have a label, you will be able to identify it as a limited-speed motorcycle by the following:
• Electric or gas powered
• Maximum speed of 70 km/h
• Automatic transmission
• Has a "step through" vehicle design
• Maximum engine displacement of 50 cubic centimetres or less

To see if your LSM meets the approved definition, please see Vehicle Descriptions.

Where LSMs and mopeds can travel

You are not allowed to drive your limited-speed motorcycle or moped on controlled-access highways such as the 400 series highways, the Queen Elizabeth Way, the Queensway in Ottawa and the Kitchener-Waterloo Expressway. The holder of a Class M1 licence cannot drive their limited-speed motorcycle or moped on roads with speed limits of more than 80 km/hr. Local municipalities can ban mopeds from roads in their jurisdiction where the speed limit is 80 km/hr or greater.

How can I upgrade from an LSM/Moped to a motorcycle?

Limited-speed motorcycle and moped drivers with the new restricted M licence who wish to drive a full-speed motorcycle must successfully complete an M1 and M2 road test on a full-speed motorcycle. To fill out an application, visit a DriveTest Centre to apply for a temporary unrestricted licence and pay the required fee. This will allow you to practise on a full-speed motorcycle before taking a road test.

Visitors and new Ontario residents

If you hold a motorcycle licence from another Canadian jurisdiction that is equivalent to Ontario's restricted class M licence, you will be able to exchange your licence.

[ranger l]

You've inspired me to research.
It appears there is now an in-between class for "e-bikes" - kind of in between bicycles and L-S-M motor-scooters. So watch out for these things being ridden by non-licensed kids (and soccer Moms doing penance for their SUVs) with bicycle helmets going 32 kmh!

http://news.ontario.ca/mto/en/2009/10/e ... roads.html

E-bikes can share the road with cars, pedestrians and other traffic throughout Ontario —with new safety requirements.

E-bikes reach a maximum speed of 32 kilometres per hour and offer another option for clean, green commuting and travel. Effective October 3, 2009, new requirements that will increase rider safety include:

Limiting the maximum weight of an e-bike to 120 kilograms

Requiring a maximum braking distance of nine metres

Prohibiting modifications of the e-bike's motor to enable power-assisted speeds greater than 32 kilometres per hour.

All riders must be at least 16 years of age, wear approved bicycle or motorcycle helmets and follow the same traffic laws that apply to bicyclists such as keeping as close to the right edge of the road as possible.

Municipalities can determine where e-bikes may be ridden on their streets, bike lanes and trails.

[totalmotorcycle]

Seems like a lot of regulation coming out. I can only think it will hurt ALL the industries. After all, the main purposes of these regulations are to make it safer for all, but why regulate when you can educate?

Where does it stop? Will kids need to get a licence to ride a pedal bike? A learner’s licence for a tricycle?

[jstark47]

It seems like ppl get a lot more 'guff' for riding motorcycles over scooters. But, some of the bigger scooters can go plenty fast and be - in my thoughts at least - literally the same risk as motorcycles. Of course, the fact that most scooter riders i see have minimal gear (if any) add to the risk...

So, what's the deal in your opinion. How do they differ in riding experience (esp the bigger ones), why do you think the perception is that they are safer than motorcycles (or let me know if that perception is false).

Zman, we had a Honda Reflex (250cc maxi-scooter) around the household 2004-06, and I put a couple thousand miles on it, so I have some experience. The perception of scooters as safer I think mostly comes from uninformed non-riders. Maybe it's based on scooters being "cute", hence non-threatening? But it's really BS. Even a 49cc scooter can move you fast enough to kill you if you wipe out on a turn. The woman we sold our Reflex to had an accident on it that broke her collarbone (classic noob mistake of not looking where she wanted to go, nothing specific to scooters vs. motorcycles.)

The big maxi-scooters of 400-600cc (Burgman, Majesty, Silverwing, Scarebo, Xciting, etc,) can weigh more than medium-small motorcycles and will easily do freeway speeds. You can dump them by making any of the same mistakes you can make on a motorcycle, and you're no more or no less prone to get hurt if you do dump them at speed.

They're really just a different style of motorcycle.

[pchast]

+1

[zeligman]

...
They're really just a different style of motorcycle.

thanks for the thoughtful post J - very helpful~!

My left ankle is now healing from surgery #2 - a full ankle joint fusion. I don't know where that will leave me operating-wise with a motorcycle - we'll have to see what kind of shifting I will be able to do. Hopefully a heel/toe will make it work

[ranger l]

Where does it stop? Will kids need to get a licence to ride a pedal bike? A learner’s licence for a tricycle?

Welcome to Premier McGoofy's Ontario - where it's illegal to have a pit-bull, where your vehicle is seized for 7 days without any due process if a cop thinks you went 50+ over the limit, where our tax money is used to pay US utilities to take our surplus power (surplus because we have to buy wind power at 10x the market price even if the grid doesn't need it).

[havegunjoe]

I started on a scooter and my main complaint was the sitting in a chair like position. You straddle a motorcycle but sit as if in a chair on a scooter. I didn't like that feeling. Taking a curve made me uncomfortable in that position.