My Politically Correct Seasons Greetings

[ronboskz650sr]

Thanks, Scan. A cool thing happened today. I was out with my son, Chris, picking up in a neighborhood...as this is his only day off to help me this year for the huge holiday loads. A rep from the Missouri House of representatives came out of his house, to the road to give us a hand. He told me he'd be a job reference for me! SO awesome! So unexpected, to have him come out today as I'm about to hand my business over and submit a resume to a local company. They will know him for sure, especially since he was the county commissioner here until he was re-elected to the house in 2002. This is the kind of reference I could only dream of. SO keep those prayers coming..they are being heard!

[Loonette]

That whole comment is a Red Herring and you know it.

Actually I didn't know it - didn't even know what a "red herring" was until you posted the term, prompting me to look up its meaning. And no, I don't believe the comparison to be a red herring - it is very much the same topic. We're talking about reproductive rights. Folks have those rights to scientifically create life as well as to scientifically end life (as well as to use birth control methods to prevent pregnancy). Because of your religion, your belief is that not all forms of reproductive control are acceptable. Good for you, but our government is supposed to protect the beliefs of us all.

So my intentions were not to derail the topic at hand. In my mind, I thought I was making a pretty good comparison. I understand that you see it differently, but you saying "and you know it" is pretty rude. How do you know what is in my mind and heart?

[Loonette]

A brief hijacking...

SV - I had no idea that you and your wife were going through this hardship right now. I'm glad to know that you have a good support system to help you through your struggle. I hope that you are able to enjoy as many your moments together as possible.

Cheers,
Loonette

[sv-wolf]

Ron, I'm sorry, we appear to be misunderstanding each other very badly. That often happens when people come from very different viewpoints. I thought I had made it clear that I was using just one comment you made about man's inherently evil nature as a jumping off point for some of my own views and feelings. My comments come out of my own belief system and experiences and are not intended as an attack upon yours. I have nothing individually against Christians, though I do object to some featurtes of Christian insitutions and beliefs.

Let me try to be clear, because, as far as I can tell from your posts, you are a genuinely good man with good intentions and I give you my respect for that. Also, I have enjoyed some of our exchanges, in which I have warmed to you, and apart from minor irritations at your tone, I bear no personal ill will towards you. I certainly would not wish to misrepresent you in any way. You sounded rather pained in your first reply and I regret that should be so.

I do not share your belief in a Christian notion of God or your view that the bible represents some kind of spiritual truth (though I think for some the Bible is a way to genuine spiritual experience). So I come from the position of seeing Christianity as a set of instituions, social movements and ideological beliefs. Any critique of Christianity I have therefore is related soley to the effects of those instituions, ideologies and movements on human welfare. I look at the history of Christian institutions and I am not impressed.

The belief in the inherently evil nature of humankind has throughout
history been used to justify many horrendous actions: Mankind is evil, runs the argument, therefore wars and massacres are inevitable, and therefore it is futile to try to stop them, or to create a better state of society. So, Ron, when I took up your comment on this matter, I was making a general point and was not implying that you had yourself given up on humanity or are without hope. My impression formed from your previous posts was quite the contrary.

On the issue of smugness. This is something I experience with many proselytising Christians. I think it is inherent in any point of view that believes it is in possession of a unitque and absolute truth. It comes from a kind of exclusiveness of belief. It generally implies that the believer has acheived some ultimate end and that everyone else is foolish and to be despised or ignorant and to be pitied. There is a kind of one-upmanship about it. I'm afraid I do find it - mildly - in your posts sometimes, though I am quite prepared to believe that you don't intend it. My suggestion that you regarded yourself as perfet was, I admit, meant sarcastically and ironically. It was there to make a point about your comemt and not to suggest that you actually thought of yourself that way.

The Bible, if it is nothing else, is at least a language text. Language, by its very nature is polysemous, ie it is incapable of being reduced to a single meaning. The Bible is capable of a myriad interpretations. My wife, who is a lifelong Christian, would strongly disagree with some of your views. You have chosen to interpret it in one way, she another. And I do not accept the idea, often put forward, that those who do not act in accordance wth one view of the religion are necessarily not true or proper Christians. These kinds of accusations rattle backwards and forwards between sects all the time. They are of course, of importance to Christians, but not to me as an outsider.

I understand broadly what your beliefs are, but I have no notion what your specific interpretation of the bible or your faith is and therefore I have no notion what you believe in any detail.

Anyway, Ron, I don't want to go on forever answering each of the rapidly proliferating points that this debate has thrown up, but I hope you take my general drift. Please accept my best wishes and hope that we can accept our differences without any bad feeling.


Richard

[Wizzard]

A holy man was having a conversation with the Lord one day and said, "Lord, I would like to know what Heaven and Hell are like. "The Lord led the holy man to two doors. He opened one of the doors and the holy man looked in. In the middle of the room was a large round table. In the middle of the table was a large pot of stew which smelled delicious and made the holy man's mouth water.



The people sitting around the table were thin and sickly. They appeared to be famished. They were holding spoons with very long handles and each found it possible to reach into the pot of stew and take a spoonful, but because the handle was longer than their arms, they could not get the spoons back into their mouths. The holy man shuddered at the sight of their misery and suffering. The Lord said, "You have seen Hell."

They went to the next room and opened the door. It was exactly the same as the first one. There was the large round table with the large pot of stew which made the holy man's mouth water. The people were equipped with the same long-handled spoons, but here the people were well nourished and plump, laughing and talking. The holy man said, "I don't understand."

It is simple" said the Lord, "it requires but one skill. You see, they have learned to feed each other. While the greedy think only of themselves

[ZooTech]

So my intentions were not to derail the topic at hand. In my mind, I thought I was making a pretty good comparison. I understand that you see it differently, but you saying "and you know it" is pretty rude. How do you know what is in my mind and heart?

I don't pretend to know what's in your mind and heart, Kris, but I know you to be smart enough to realize you're trying to justify one behavior based on another. It's legal to seek the help of fertility clinics, often resulting in multiple births, therefore it should be legal to abort an unwanted child too, right? Is that more or less the point you were trying to make? They both have to do with "reproductive rights" as you put it, therefore they should be treated the same, correct? That's where we disagree. You see, a woman's right to choose takes place in the bedroom. No one seems to like that point of view because it forces them to be responsible at a time when they just want to have some fun. Again, I'm the buzz-kill. But why do you suppose the Bible insists people be married before having sex? Don't you think it's trying to address this very situation? Be fruitful and multiply, but be fiscally prepared and ready for the potential result beforehand. What does a woman lose if abortion is made illegal other than a way out of a tight spot they could have easily avoided? And don't think for a second that my viewpoint lets the man off the hook, leaving the woman to bear all the repurcussions herself. Anyone choosing to have sex better damn well know what could happen by doing so, and they sure as hell better be ready, willing, and able to care for a child if one should result. Label me intolerant if you like, but neither God nor I will ever bend on this. I won't play the "when does life really begin" game with abortion advocates. Sperm plus egg equals kid.

As for fertility clinics, that's a whole different discussion. It's a Red Herring because it's a piece of information dropped into the conversation that bears no relevance and only serves to dilute the topic at hand. Does God frown upon it? To be quite honest, I don't know. But how its current legal status could be used as a justification for abortion is beyond me.

On the issue of smugness. This is something I experience with many proselytising Christians. I think it is inherent in any point of view that believes it is in possession of a unitque and absolute truth. It comes from a kind of exclusiveness of belief. It generally implies that the believer has acheived some ultimate end and that everyone else is foolish and to be despised or ignorant and to be pitied. There is a kind of one-upmanship about it. I'm afraid I do find it - mildly - in your posts sometimes, though I am quite prepared to believe that you don't intend it. My suggestion that you regarded yourself as perfect was, I admit, meant sarcastically and ironically. It was there to make a point about your comment and not to suggest that you actually thought of yourself that way.

I can understand where that feeling is coming from. And I have no advice to offer you for determining whether or not a given Christian is coming from that standpoint. I myself have fled from organized religion because of all the hypocrisy I have witnessed throughout my life. Many have given Christianity a bad name, much the same as a few Muslim extremists have given the nation of Islam a bad name. But I assure you I have no feelings of superiority to any of you. In fact, I am humbled by the fact that God chose to reveal Himself to me at the tender age of twelve. All I can hope for is to lead as many as I can to Him before I die, even though I know the act is, for all intents and purposes, futile. Just know this....I claim no denomination, nor do I define "Christian" as some exclusive group of people who agree entirely on all the little details about the Bible. What God requires of us to enter the Kingdom of Heaven is to believe in Him and to accept the gift of salvation His son died on the cross to offer us. Sounds simple enough, but man's pride is his undoing. That's where the Catholic church comes in and preaches works-based salvation. It plays right into man's pride and his concept of fairness....that if he lives a good and decent life, and tries to help others when he can, that he should be welcome in heaven or else he doesn't want to spend eternity with some so-called "God" that thinks different. That is why leading someone to salvation is so difficult. Because they have to be broken of their pride, admit they are a sinner, and accept Jesus as the only way into heaven. And I say "Christianity" and "Jesus" for a lack of better terms because as long as your "religion" follows this fundamental teaching then we're on the same page.

Look, I can't blame you for feeling the way you do. I myself haven't been to church in years, and you couldn't drag me into one if you wanted to. Churches tend to lose focus on the message and pursue issues of little or no consequence. They squabble over doctrinal details with other sects and denominations and devote too much money to the expansion and furnishing of church buildings. All in all I think organized religion does more to drive unbelievers away than anything else. So I invite you to look into the message of Christ at your own pace, and on your own terms. Keep an open heart and ask Him to reveal the truth to you. Quell your pride for a moment and just ask Him to tell you what it is He wants to tell you. It won't be easy, but I pray you'll at least meet Him half way.

[Wizzard]

Label me intolerant if you like, but neither God nor I will ever bend on this.

Ya know I luv ya Zoo , however that statement is way too presumptuous for a mere mortal to make .
Regards, Wizzard

[ZooTech]

Label me intolerant if you like, but neither God nor I will ever bend on this.

Ya know I luv ya Zoo , however that statement is way too presumptuous for a mere mortal to make .
Regards, Wizzard

God is pretty clear about His stand on abortion, Wizz, so I don't believe it to be presumptuous lest my God be proven a liar. And as a follower of Christ (okay, not a good one, but I do try) I cannot vote for, believe in, or defend any position that attempts to turn a black and white topic into varying shades of grey.

[Loonette]

But why do you suppose the Bible insists people be married before having sex?

As for fertility clinics, that's a whole different discussion. It's a Red Herring because it's a piece of information dropped into the conversation that bears no relevance and only serves to dilute the topic at hand. Does God frown upon it? To be quite honest, I don't know. But how its current legal status could be used as a justification for abortion is beyond me.

Lawful marriage was devised as a way to control property (and to some degree to control women as property), and is still used in many cultures this way. Anything written in the bible was written by men. Whatever their perception of God was at the time, no matter what inspired them to write their words, you cannot make me believe that they are the direct words of God. I don't believe God works that way. Men make rules to control other men - period.

How can you not know how God feels about artificial insemination when you so clearly know his stand on abortion? Since so many who use this procedure are Christians, apparently it's okay. Some Christians (along with some folks in just about any other religious group {well, except maybe Jehovah Witnesses}) have a tendency of bending the rules of the bible (or their belief system) to fulfill their own personal desires. Pretty convenient.

I don't know what the exact words are in the bible regarding premarital sex. I don't need to read the rules of the bible. It doesn't interest me. I'd rather read about reincarnation and Karma to find my spiritual path here on Earth. My religion tells me that if you're honest, respectful, and committed to the person you love, then you are married. I happen to be legally married, only because I was very young when I got married, and had not yet developed a spiritual philosophy. It's because of the spiritual life that I have now that I've managed to stay married for nearly 20 years, raising two children in a home filled with positive energy and the spirit of God. No bible scared me into this. It's all been between me and God.

My faith in God is strictly spiritual. I connect with God through meditation, time spent in nature-filled settings, and through my experiences in life - both good and bad. As soon as humans start trying to tell me the rules of God, forget it. I think it's insulting to God to assume that you know his every desire for us based on the writings humans. Your life and your choices have you sitting well within the teachings of the Christian bible. I happen to view things differently.

[ronboskz650sr]

Thanks, Richard. I know we differ on this. I do hope I haven't lashed out in a way that hurts anybody. That isn't my intent. Clearly Christians who hurt each other, and their non-Christian friends don't present a witness in the example if Christ, and I know we all blow it sometimes. I even know some professing Christians who won't give me the time of day just because of my current job. It was really cool when The guy in the Missouri house of reperesentatives came out to the road to help yesterday. My son saw this, and was amazed at the guy treating us just like we treat him...with utmost respect. I'll try to do better here with that, because I can see from re-reading my own posts, how it's possible to infer a tone I didn't mean to imply. The book of James warns us of the tongue and it's power to hurt. Really the keyboard has become an extension of the tongue nowadays. This forum is actually very, VERY civil compared to some of the other motorcycle forums. It's easy to type something and have it seem different than what you meant. I apologize for any words that hurt. I can actually say all these words face-to face- and show love while saying them. Facial expression and body language really mean alot .