My Politically Correct Seasons Greetings

[Wizzard]

Actually the great deceiver sounds more like our current administration in DC than the Catholic Church . And in case you've forgotten there would be no Christian churches had there not been a Catholic church to begin with .
Regards, Wizzard

[ZooTech]

Actually the great deceiver sounds more like our current administration in DC than the Catholic Church.

Another thread, another time.

And in case you've forgotten there would be no Christian churches had there not been a Catholic church to begin with .
Regards, Wizzard

The Catholic church came to be in 312AD when Constantine began incorporating pagan rituals and idols into Christianity to avoid the persecution that true Christians had suffered for centuries. You're putting the cart way before the horse.

[Nibblet99]

Argh... how did this topic double in size in a couple of days?... might take me a while to catch up

[blues2cruise]

[Loonette]

I know that I can't possibly catch up to every word that's been posted in the past couple of days. Geez, you sit for a day or two to visit with family and help the kids put together their holiday gifts, and the whole world falls apart!!

The comparison of homosexuality and child molestation is absurd. I believe that the attraction a pedophile has to a child is a natural attraction to them. The problem with the behavior is that a child cannot possibly give consent to such an act, thus our society has deemed this behavior illegal and punishable by our laws in our society. Homosexuality involves consenting adults. Vastly different. If two (or more) adults want to engage in any activity involving their own bodies, that's their business.

I have empathy for the child molesters and the rapists and the murderers of the world. Not because I think they should be set free from their punishments on Earth (as a matter of fact I think the death penalty sucks because it releases the guilty from paying their debt to society) I have empathy for them because their soul is lost, and what a shame that is. To inflict yourself upon another without their consent is wrong, and for some reason these folks have come to a place in their life where this is what they do to have some control in their life. It's a sad thing, and I feel sorry for them. Do they need to pay for their Earthly crime? Of course. But I don't believe they will be "damned" by God. I believe that they were meant to be here, however despicable their actions, to learn and to teach. Maybe in their next life they will be the victim instead of the assailant? Maybe in the life after that they'll be a nun or a born-again TV evangelist? I don't know for sure - it's what I believe.

I know a lesbian couple down the street who are raising two children (one a birth child of the one lady, and the other child adopted by the other lady). They raise their kids very similarly to the way Scan and I raise our kids. We have similar homes with similar beliefs. What they do between their own sheets in their own bedroom is their business (it might even be less weird than the stuff heteros do in their bedrooms!).

I know another couple (man and woman) who don't like to label their sexuality at all. They are both attracted to men and/or women, but they say that the attraction to the person comes first. Whether the other person is male or female is of little concern to them - their only concern is that they care and love the other person. The physical equipment is what they were born with, so that's what they've got to work with. Interesting thing about this couple is that, since they both prefer a monogamous relationship, when they found out that they were having a baby, they decided to start a family. So while neither one would claim to be heterosexual (or any other "sexual") they basically live a heterosexual lifestyle at this time because they are raising their child in a committed, monogamous relationship. Their child is now 7 years old.

I just can't see "wrong" when people are living a good life - being supportive, loving, serving their communities, raising kind children.

******************************************

I think I understand what SV means when he speaks of "emptiness". The first time I had a yoga session was while living in Chicago about five years ago. Up until that time I was drawn mostly to Earth based beliefs (and still am). During this first yoga session, I can remember the feeling of release through my physical form - pushing through the pain of the poses helps to release negativity from the body and to establish a channel for positive energy to enter the body. Real simple stuff. It was the meditation at the end that got me. I'm just laying there, listening to the Yogi softly chant, and the tears came out of me in streams. I had so successfully "emptied" myself of environmental influence and of mental chatter that I was now able to be filled to the brim with pure joy. Not because someone taught it to me from a book, but because it was a direct connection between me and Spirit. What a blessing! Maybe following the writings of the Bible can move others this way, but it doesn't work for me.

I don't enjoy theological debate. I believe that spirituality is such a personal thing, that you can't really make up a bunch a rules about it. A Christian will argue that the Bible is the direct word of God, but I don't buy it. There's not really much more for me to say, so I'm gonna bow out of the discussion (unless more postings inspire me to write back, that is ).

I hope that everyone enjoys their New Year's festivities. (I celebrate my birthday on the 1st, so I get to have a double good time.)

Loonette

[ZooTech]

The comparison of homosexuality and child molestation is absurd.

One last time, for the record, I was not comparing the two. I was trying to demonstrate to Gummi that even he has boundaries and will "judge" a person based on behavior (I just chose pedofilia because I doubt there are any advocates here). And I also wanted to make the point that if a homosexual is "born that way", then perhaps a pedophile is, too. So are we to feel sorry for these people? I guess you do, but I do not.

So, once again we arrive at accountability, or lack thereof. The "born that way" argument is an attempt to remove accountability just as much as the removal of Christianity from our society is. Without an all-knowing, all-powerful God to hold you accountable for your actions, nothing in this world is absolute. What you consider over-the-line of decency or morality, someone else may not. And under whose authority are you going to enact laws to curb the behavior? Your own?

[Spiff]

Exactly how does displaying the Ten Commandments harm someone when all the words in them are the foundation of our legal system? Go ahead and try, there is no way to show it does, regardless of what agency you place them in...government or civilian.

Easy as pie. I'll do it in one sentence.

A non-believer is tried for a crime in a courtroom with religious scripture on the wall -- can this person be sure he/she is going to receive a fair trial?

Put more broadly, if the government clearly endorses one religion over another, then all individuals not of the favored religion are treated as second-class citizens. And that sucks. It's un-American.

Again, you are 100% mistaken when you state that the ACLU is anti-Christian.

It may seem that way to people who don't bother to fully understand what the ACLU does.

Jews, Muslims, Bhuddists, Zoro-Astrians, etc. are NOT the groups trying to get the government to endorse their brand of religion. It's the Christians who are currently doing that. And for that reason, you mistakenly label the ACLU as anti-Christian. Shame on you.

If the Jews ever agitate to put Torah scrolls above the doors of U.S. courtrooms, then you'll be damn sure the ACLU would be going after them.

But Jews don't try to do this, probably because due to their history, they know damn well what it's like to be treated as second-class citizens!

In an earlier post, I pointed out that the ACLU is fighting a "Camera Cop" program that gives out tickets to the owners of cars caught on camera going through red lights.

This program unconstitutionally assumes that the car owners are guilty and makes them go to court to prove their innocence: that they were not in the driver's seat that day.

I support the ACLU in this fight, even though I risk being mistakenly labeled as a lover of red-light runners.

I support the ACLU in its noble goal of keeping the goverment from favoring one religion over another, even though I risk being mistakenly called anti-Christian.

Finally, very early on in this thread I posted an offer of $100 to anyone who could provide me with a news story that showed that the ACLU has an organized campaign to intimidate retailers into saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas."

If such an ACLU campaign existed, anyone could go to Google.com, type in four or five search words, and three clicks of the mouse later, he or she would have the links needed to collect the $100.

Nobody has so far even tried to offer such evidence, which would be so easily obtained via the Internet -- if such evidence existed, which it doesn't.

The ACLU has not mounted such a campaign, so why do so many people say that it has?

I truly wonder about the critical thinking skills of some people. Or maybe it's just that they are too lazy to look up the facts because it's so much easier to just believe what some talking head told you on the radio or TV.

[sv-wolf]

Hey Zoo, we're warming up here.

OK. Let me get one thing clear. I am no Liberal. Liberals, at least here in the United Kingdom, are supporters of the Capitalist State. I'm not. I think that Capitalism was once a historically useful form of society in that it enabled the technology of production to develop rapidly to the point where abundance is possible. Unfortunately, Capitalism has another side. There has never been such a horrifically destructive, wasteful, exploitative, murderous form of society. It is no longer necessary in terms of production, so it is time to move on.

What am I then? Well that is a good question. I don't appear to fall into any of your black and white little boxes. Call me a Socialist for now. That's as near as I can get in a single word. But I don't like labels and this covers so many very different points of view, most of which I would oppose, that it is not very useful.


[quote ="ZooTech"]

Getting wilder, Zoo

Classic liberal attack. Start off by discrediting your opponent.009op[/quote]

No. It summarises the points made subsequently.

Is it so difficult to believe a Christian would hold the Bible as the one true word of God?

No. You clearly do. That wasn't my point. There is no single way to interpret the bible - or any book come to that. So how did you arrive at your particular view?

You think it's just some ancient text...and good on ya. I do not. I believe it is the authority by which we are to live by, and I know for a fact it is what this nation was founded upon.

Could have fooled me. I thought your nation, like mine, was founded upon exploitation. But I'll admit, yours is much better at manipulating the minds of its population and in spouting fine sounding phrases

And judging by the last election, you seem to be in the minority, so stop treating me like some poor idiot standing alone in his beliefs.

Zoo, check my details. I'm not American. I don't give a sod what happened in your last election. I despise both the Republican and Democratic parties in America and all they stand for, just as I despise Labour and Tory and Liberal parties here at home. As far as I'm concerned you need a magnifying glass to see any significant difference between them.

Yeah, well. We are all poor idiots standing alone in our beliefs - unless we are truly sheep. People choose their beliefs, Zoo, or mindlessly follow the herd. Either way you have individual and solitary responsibility for what you believe, whether a lot of other people accept the same label as you or not. ( Have to admit though, I was trolling you a little on this to see what you would come up with. No hard feelings.)

Wow, I'm one helluva hate monger. I think homosexuality is wrong, that liberal professors with tenure are making a mockery of our universities, and that abortion is murder. No wonder you think I'm a bigot, I have morals and I'm not afraid to apply them in public.

Missing my point again, Zoo. Many people, as you point out, would share these judgemental and negative views. I'm just wondering why you personally get so angry when you express them. None of my business of course, but I thought I would ask. I'm curious. You are, of course, at liberty to tell me to go screw myself.

Oh, and I'm also not afraid to say that Harley Sportsters are among the ugliest bikes on the road. Forgot that one.

Show me one example, just one, where I have "put words in God's mouth". Oh yeah, cuz I believe the Bible, that's right. Silly me.

Not words (though the issue of translation is not a small one) ideas. Many people and many sects and demonimations believe the Bible and believe it differerently to you, even those who claim to interpret it literally. No text can be pinned down to a single meaning, least of all a complex book like the Bible. So it is fertile ground for people to project their own needs onto.

Projecting our own ideas into what we read or see is a universal human habit. We are a pattern making animal. And when we find a pattern that fits our conscious or unconscious needs it has a feeling of rightness. The bible is just a book, just paper and ink until someone gives it authority over their lives. This is a choice each individual makes for themselves and therefore the individual has responsibility for it. If you choose to believe something you do it on your own authority whoever you think it comes from.

Many fundamentalists take it as obvious that interpreting the Bible literally (as they see it) is the only way to arrive at the truth (again, as they see it). I've never found anyone who can give me a thoroughly convincing reason for this.

So, yes, bigoted, I would say. And so angry that you toss off loads of sarcasm masquarading as genuine argument, like your comparison of homosexuality and paedophilia above.

It wasn't a comparison, but it doesn't surprise me that you too missed the whole point of the question. You want to label me a bigot and call me intolerant yet when pushed to confess your opinion of child molestors you stop short and change the subject. You pretend as though you're an all-accepting, loving liberal who is cool with everyone's life choices. Well, out with it. Waddya think of 'em, SV? Are they just born with an attraction to little kids? Are they misunderstood? Am I an intolerant, bigot, Bible-thumping right-winger for saying that pedophilia is wrong? Did "God" magically come to me and tell me it was wrong?

And you wonder why I asked you for the reason you were so ANGRY, Zoo. That seems to be your predominant mode.

If you weren't so angry, you might read my posts more carefully. And your own. Unless you use some kind of grammar I do not understand you most certainly did attempt to justify your position on homosexuality by comparing it with paedophilia. Which is absurd for absurdly obvious reasons.

But since you seem to need very black and white sort of statements before you can understand what is being said, I'll comply.

I see nothing wrong in homosexuality. Like heterosexuality, it harms no-one in itself. I see plenty of wrong in violence and in actions that cause harm to others. When someone commits a homosexual or heterosexual act violently upon another person or without their consent then that act is wrong, not just morally wrong according to some ancient religious code but wrong at all levels. It does violence to all the social, and human values that I would want to live by. Child molestation, by definition harms others, and most especially it harms some of the most vulnerable people in our society. It harms them both in the act and for life. By definition it is therefore wrong, horribly wrong. Do I believe paedophiles should be prevented from committing this violence on others? Of course I do, by the best means available. Do I feel compassion for them? Yes, I hope so.

Acts like child rape are born out of ignorance. Human beings have an inordinate ability to lie to themselves, to construct all kinds of strange realities. Most sexual abusers have particularly unusual mental boundaires and throught processes. This is because they were usually abused themselves. It is a trauma that is passed down through society from generation to generation.

In the last analysis, people who commit paedophile acts are also just people like anyone ese. And all people, all of us are deserving of compassion, because we are all struggling with painful, imperfect lives.

[ZooTech]

And you wonder why I asked you for the reason you were so ANGRY, Zoo. That seems to be your predominant mode.

Angry? No. Defensive perhaps. Or haven't you noticed that I have umpteen posts to respond to. I'm holding half a dozen discussions at once, and some (not you) are only in it to see me get upset. It doesn't exactly feel good to be labeled a hate-monger, especially when it couldn't be further from the truth.

Unless you use some kind of grammar I do not understand you most certainly did attempt to justify your position on homosexuality by comparing it with paedophilia. Which is absurd for absurdly obvious reasons.

The point I was trying to make is simple. A lot of you guys are baffled by the fact that I stand up against homosexuality and abortion, among other things. So I threw something out there that I know everyone here is against, and ask you why you're against it. The simple answer is because you believe it to be wrong. I, too, believe pedophilia is wrong...and happen to believe abortion and homosexuality are wrong. Not because I can compare any of them directly to one another, but because my belief system teaches that all are abominations unto the Lord. I only used pedophilia as an example because it was a sure thing that everyone here unanimously agrees it's wrong, because I didn't want the debate getting side-tracked by someone who could justify homocide, best, or some other example. Perhaps a better way of going about it would have been to simply ask what do you feel is wrong and why do you feel that way. We all have that "line" in our minds between what is wrong and what is right. Essentially I was asked why I draw mine where I do. Well, for the same reason you draw yours where you do. Based on my beliefs, my faith, my observations, my reasoning, and my logic. Since different people are different, it's really no wonder we all draw that line in different places. We Christians consider the Bible to be the defining line, so the hope is that we as a group can stand up for these beliefs on common ground. However, since so many feel (wrongly so) that interpreting the Bible is a subjective pursuit, we as a group have split into different denominations and sects over that one fallacy. As a literalists, I challenge individual denominations pretty much as often as I challenge atheists, so I am no stranger to standing alone in my beliefs.

I see nothing wrong in homosexuality. Like heterosexuality, it harms no-one in itself.

Yes, and for an atheist that is all that really matters. Do what you want to so long as it doesn't harm anyone else. Christianity, however, is not so simple. We are concerned with social morality and with each person's relationship with God. Without a belief in God, this appears intrusive and nosey. But how are we to spread the Word of God by being silent and biting our lip? Now, don't get me wrong, I don't advocate acts of force or butting into places where I'm not invited. This does more to harm Christian reputation than anything. However, in a public forum where these topics are up for free debate I see no intrusion. People can come and go to this thread as they please, and can skip over posts as they see fit. So, I speak my mind regarding homosexuality, abortion, and whatever. Especially when I encounter those who claim to be Christians, or claim to believe in a God "of sorts", because I find it very insulting to the Creator of the universe to be accused of having such a passive role in our lives. The fact of the matter is, the Bible conflicts with the way some of you supposed believers want to live your lives so you choose to dismiss it as the Word of God, labeling it instead some old book written by men who wanted to control people. Then you play CYA and say you believe in God, but feel that He is too loving and too busy to concern himself with every facet of our lives, so as long as we live decently enough and do our best He will accept us. Well, God is a very loving, forgiving God - but He is also a jealous God and does not like it when other things come before Him. He is a vengeful God who has been known to flood the entire planet killing women, children, infants...everything!...because of man's sinful nature. And what kind of Christian would I be if, knowing what I know, I kept my mouth shut in the face of sinful activities knowing full well that a day of judgement is coming and I may provide that one little push that makes the difference in someone's ultimate outcome?

[blues2cruise]

I have a question for you zootech. If the bible were written in modern times, what do you think God would have to say about speeding?

God commanded us to give unto Caesar (the government) that which is Caesar's. He expects us to follow the laws of the land so long as they do not conflict with the laws of God.

So, yes, by speeding I am sinning. I've been rather open about my sinful nature and this is a very good example, Blues.

So please remember the next time you are speeding, that the person ahead of you who is going the speed limit, may be a fellow Christian who is obeying the law of the land that you speak of.

You can speed if you so choose, but don't wave a fist or tailgate to intimidate the law abider.