Total Motorcycle Community Forums

mydlyfkryzis wrote:I have a better idea on how to prevent accidents like this. Rather than punish a dealer for selling that which he sells, I propose all potential buyer need to get my approval before buying a motorcycle. After an extensive interview, I will render judgment, I.E: A> This person is normal and can buy their motorcycle of choice or B> This person is an idiot and should not be allowed to buy or ride.

I have no other qualifications other than I know an idiot when I see one.

Oh, and of course, I would expect a nominal fee.

Damn, you'd be a very busy person certifying riders. The problem would be someone trying to sue you if you misjudged someone and they become bug splatter.

But overall, that isn't a bad idea. An unofficial review group of existing riders to sit the 18 or 20 year old kid and tell them what riding a 200 hp 400 lb bike is like and that maybe they should start with a moped first.... Ok, I'm exaggerating.

But aren't almost all motorcycle dealers populated mostly by bikers. Shouldn't they be able to do your litmus test as long time riders?

RhadamYgg

Talus wrote:

dm@ss wrote:
As for bad decisions and personal responsibility, anyone want to buy a Wall Street bank?

I love this!

Me too!

One of the guys at Tiger Schulmanns is a stock trader. He was complaining he couldn't concentrate in class because of all the crap going on in wall street.

RhadamYgg
[fixed spelling error]

dr_bar wrote:I kinda like laying blame...

• The manufacturer, for producing a vehicle that is capable of far exceeding any legal speed limit in the country.
• The dealership, for offering for sale said vehicle.
• The saleman, for not exercising morals and selling said vehicle to dimwit.
• The deceased, for purchasing a vehicle that was way out of his league, and not having the license or training needed to control said vehicle.
• The parents, for failing to drill into their child's head the common sense required to survive past his 21st birthday.

Did I miss anybody???

I was going to say no, but I think one group is missing.

Motorcyclists - for failing to take care of one of their own, even though he was only a motorcyclist for less than a day.

RhadamYgg

RhadamYgg wrote:

dr_bar wrote:I kinda like laying blame...

• The manufacturer, for producing a vehicle that is capable of far exceeding any legal speed limit in the country.
• The dealership, for offering for sale said vehicle.
• The saleman, for not exercising morals and selling said vehicle to dimwit.
• The deceased, for purchasing a vehicle that was way out of his league, and not having the license or training needed to control said vehicle.
• The parents, for failing to drill into their child's head the common sense required to survive past his 21st birthday.

Did I miss anybody???

I was going to say no, but I think one group is missing.

Motorcyclists - for failing to take care of one of their own, even though he was only a motorcyclist for less than a day.

RhadamYgg

uhh and what motorcyclists do you think would have been able to "sway" this kid from doing what he did? You were a teenager once and I can assure you there most likely wouldnt have been anyone to sway him into not buying such a big bike.

ofblong wrote:

RhadamYgg wrote:

dr_bar wrote:I kinda like laying blame...

• The manufacturer, for producing a vehicle that is capable of far exceeding any legal speed limit in the country.
• The dealership, for offering for sale said vehicle.
• The saleman, for not exercising morals and selling said vehicle to dimwit.
• The deceased, for purchasing a vehicle that was way out of his league, and not having the license or training needed to control said vehicle.
• The parents, for failing to drill into their child's head the common sense required to survive past his 21st birthday.

Did I miss anybody???

I was going to say no, but I think one group is missing.

Motorcyclists - for failing to take care of one of their own, even though he was only a motorcyclist for less than a day.

RhadamYgg

uhh and what motorcyclists do you think would have been able to "sway" this kid from doing what he did? You were a teenager once and I can assure you there most likely wouldnt have been anyone to sway him into not buying such a big bike.

Actually, when I was a kid I didn't have the slightest inclination to get a motorcycle.

But that doesn't invalidate your point. When you are that full of testosterone, that 'in' to getting the most powerful bike on the block - what can really stop you? You'll nod your head when people tell you that it can be dangerous, etc. and then go straight to the dealer and say - that brand-new CBR1000RR - I'd like that - and I make good enough money to buy it (which really isn't that much money.

But that fact still doesn't invalidate that motorcyclists are responsible (not in a legally culpable way). Really in terms of a society. It is rare that you see any of the big mags talk about how people need to start small and learn the skill set before buying the Hayabusa. We buy those magazines, even if it is only once in a while. We don't complain about it. Here on this site we'll talk about the noobs and advise them what they should get, but inside of every review there should be a little well-worded paragraph that states something like 'You wouldn't dream of driving a race car on city streets without first learning to drive a car, why would you do it with a motorcycle?'

We can attempt to do something (obviously not all motorcyclists) such as create a loose organization with a simple certification. To go to dealerships and get their pledge that they won't sell bikes to people who are in out of their depth. We can popularize the idea that like Spiderman, great power requires great responsibility (I know I butchered the quote, but it is late).

In fact, with 6.5 million bikes in the USA, only a small number of bikers could do something to make a difference to ensure that fewer (note, of course, not none) die every year by jumping on a rocket-powered low-weight monster than what happens at present.

Motorcycling takes horrible PR when professional Hockey players buy their first bike and die almost immediately.

And I know I'm not horribly imaginative, but I'm sure there are other small things that can be done to reduce the number of idiots on high-powered bikes - without government intervention.

We can only benefit by having more - longer-term members of the 'biker' portion of society, a better reputation in politics when it comes to building the roads of the future, more people biking because as bikes can be highly fuel efficient.

Lots of good things to be had. Lots of bad things we can help to alleviate.

Hell, at 37 Years old I still drool at the big bikes, but my butt won't be going in one. I've started motorcycling too late and by the time I have enough experience I'll be too slow to react fast enough for a fast bike.

RhadamYgg

dr_bar wrote:The parents, for failing to drill into their child's head the common sense required to survive past his 21st birthday.

Oh, Rhadam, I feel for the mother and community--I really do. And I lean more toward favoring mandatory MSF-type training and helmet laws than most motorcyclists do. But I do not think anything that you have proposed would have prevented this.

1) He rode dirt bikes. He would pass a cursory skills test. Moreover, he probably could talk a good game to the salesperson.

2) Blacklisting dealerships? What if it was only an individual salesperson? More importantly, that list would have to be researched by the prospective biker in advance, and there are already resources available to help with how to get started on this hobby. The person has to be willing to perform "due diligence." If he/she is willing, the stuff is already out there. And I strongly suspect that the local reputation of this dealer has already suffered. By your criteria, it sounds like an injury/death would have to occur anyway to make the list.

3) Who knows exactly what was said at that dealership? How much can a dealership prevent a sale before being accused of discrimination? How responsible would the keepers of the list be for libel/slander should the dealership choose to sue?

4) Have you noticed that, even on this website, arguments have been made by novice riders that one can, in fact, learn to ride on a supersport, so long as one "respects the bike", blah, blah, blah. And some do, I guess. Actually, of most new riders making the SS bike error, this guy had more skills than most.

He made some perilous mistakes. We can't fix everything.

My 2 cents.

MZ33 wrote:Oh, Rhadam, I feel for the mother and community--I really do. And I lean more toward favoring mandatory MSF-type training and helmet laws than most motorcyclists do. But I do not think anything that you have proposed would have prevented this.

1) He rode dirt bikes. He would pass a cursory skills test. Moreover, he probably could talk a good game to the salesperson.

2) Blacklisting dealerships? What if it was only an individual salesperson? More importantly, that list would have to be researched by the prospective biker in advance, and there are already resources available to help with how to get started on this hobby. The person has to be willing to perform "due diligence." If he/she is willing, the stuff is already out there. And I strongly suspect that the local reputation of this dealer has already suffered. By your criteria, it sounds like an injury/death would have to occur anyway to make the list.

3) Who knows exactly what was said at that dealership? How much can a dealership prevent a sale before being accused of discrimination? How responsible would the keepers of the list be for libel/slander should the dealership choose to sue?

4) Have you noticed that, even on this website, arguments have been made by novice riders that one can, in fact, learn to ride on a supersport, so long as one "respects the bike", blah, blah, blah. And some do, I guess. Actually, of most new riders making the SS bike error, this guy had more skills than most.

He made some perilous mistakes. We can't fix everything.

My 2 cents.

Its funny, I've been thinking about a couple of things along the lines of your post. Especially number 1. He wasn't exactly a noob, like me when he started riding. So, that is a very good point.

It really doesn't negate this whole blindness salespeople and some dealerships have about having a license before buying a motorcycle when since 1989 - and never once have I been able to buy a car without the appropriate license or insurance. I realize for some posters this isn't necessarily true (based on state).

As for point number 2 - it depends on how you think of things. I was in the military for 10 years (as a reservist and national guardsmen) and I've been a member of various organizations over the years. Leadership and direction comes from the top of an organization. Also, even if an individual's actions are contrary to the organizations policy, the organizations leadership - basically as captain of the ship - is still responsible. So, to me, if a salesperson at a dealership has gross negligence and sells a bike to someone without a license - the organization is responsible. This is actually a very simple case for that. If the dealership required presentation of a valid M endorsed license and keeping photocopied records of that license when selling a bike, they would have prevented this and many similar deaths like it. And it isn't a question of this kind of death happening once every few years - these kinds of deaths happen every year.

For point number 3 - it really doesn't matter what was said at the dealership. There is an unalterable list of facts. Rider did not have a license. Dealership sold bike to rider without license. Rider without license dies. There is no reason to get involved with he said, she said. Or the promises of a purchaser to get the appropriate endorsement "as soon as they can". As far as discrimination - this is discrimination - to discriminate is to make a decision. In this case salespeople should be discriminated on the basis of the fact that if a person doesn't have the right endorsement/license - they don't belong buying this product. As far as lists and libel. If we keep to the simple case first - there is no libel, no slander. News reports that biker x was killed, had no license, purchased bike at dealership z. We keep and maintain a list online of those places and recommend that people who are living bikers do not buy from those organizations.

For point number 4 - which is also a very good point - I love your posting... People argue that they learned on x supersport bike and that it can be done and think others can and should do it too so they aren't buying a new bike every year for the first 3 years of their riding experience... One of the guys at the dealerships I've gone to admitted to started on a hyperpowerful bike and that he couldn't keep up with his friends for a long time. He refused to ride fast because he knew it was beyond his capabilies. Gradually, he learned to ride and could keep up with his buddies. I think this takes an incredible amount of self-control. I mean, I've got a piece of garbage Ninja 250 and I've take it up to 90. Given my weight and other people postings on video sites - even this bike could go faster. I do think that if people truly believe they are beyond the testosterone and they have a valid motorcycle license or M endorsement - they should be able to sign a waiver - that absolves the dealership of responsibility (and of being blacklisted) if they should die because of their choice to by a superpowered motorcycle without experience, knowledge and understanding of what these bikes can do. I also think if there is such a waiver that if these people should die - they be excluded from the overall deaths attributed to motorcycles.

You know, through a lot of debate I'm sure that we could all come up with a good way to help prevent these kinds of deaths as well as penalize those who knowingly perform unethical activities that endanger the lives of others.

RhadamYgg

I've met so many motorcyclists that I could not sway from purchasing a bigger bike and truthfully I'm starting to be of the mindset that I could have started on a 750 and while there is one instance where my over zealous nature probably would've gotten me injured the rest of the times it would've been the bike getting hurt and not me.

Being a person that does not like being injured, or incurring repair bills I would've bought the 250 still regardless. However there are some people out there that just don't care, nor will they ever care.

If you restricted this guy from buying a 600 at a dealership he just would've bought a 600 by going to someone who is selling theirs used.

A lot of the problem comes from "Peer Pressure" as well. When I was at Motorcycle Mall there were a group of people showing their friends showing a their friend what bike to buy.

The only part of the conversation I caught was "That's you right there, dawg. The 675 aight?!"

In my opinion there is nothing we can do in this situation. I feel bad for anyone that has to lose a loved one but in my opinion this is plain and simple evolution.

I'm not a bible guy myself but I feel this quote is appropriate:

"The meek shall inherit the earth."

P.S. I know you can't judge anything from a picture, but based on the "Find a nice photo for the article!" routine the kid looks like a real jock and his "Dirt Bike Riding" was probably more of the extreme variety. Which probably lead to him taking risks here as well.

Brackstone wrote:I've met so many motorcyclists that I could not sway from purchasing a bigger bike and truthfully I'm starting to be of the mindset that I could have started on a 750 and while there is one instance where my over zealous nature probably would've gotten me injured the rest of the times it would've been the bike getting hurt and not me.

Being a person that does not like being injured, or incurring repair bills I would've bought the 250 still regardless. However there are some people out there that just don't care, nor will they ever care.

If you restricted this guy from buying a 600 at a dealership he just would've bought a 600 by going to someone who is selling theirs used.

A lot of the problem comes from "Peer Pressure" as well. When I was at Motorcycle Mall there were a group of people showing their friends showing a their friend what bike to buy.

The only part of the conversation I caught was "That's you right there, dawg. The 675 aight?!"

In my opinion there is nothing we can do in this situation. I feel bad for anyone that has to lose a loved one but in my opinion this is plain and simple evolution.

I'm not a bible guy myself but I feel this quote is appropriate:

"The meek shall inherit the earth."

P.S. I know you can't judge anything from a picture, but based on the "Find a nice photo for the article!" routine the kid looks like a real jock and his "Dirt Bike Riding" was probably more of the extreme variety. Which probably lead to him taking risks here as well.

Its funny, we both go to some similar places to buy and look at bikes. When I was at Motorcycle Mall the salesperson was very eager to pre-sell me a 2008 Ninja 2008, but I told him I'd wait until after the MSF course. The door lady (an older female biker) told me as I walked out that I'd come back after the MSF course and get a 600...

I'm glad I didn't though. I'm very glad I didn't. I've made a number of mistakes while riding that I believe would have hurt on a larger bike. Basic clutch and throttle issues. I still sometimes goof a little and give it too much throttle too soon when shifting, but it isn't a big deal on this bike.

But I do know the mentality you are talking about - and it is very prevalent here in northern NJ. I call it testicles first. Because that is what people use to think first then they use their brain, if at all.

I'll admit when I saw the picture of the kid I had similar thoughts as you did - he's kind of thuggish, etc. But doing the kind of work he did, he probably built a lot of muscle and that would give him that look. You can't really judge a person by the way they look. But it is hard not to.

After about 4 months of experience and 4200 or so miles - I do feel ready to upgrade to something else. Maybe a BMW F800ST with ABS and TPS - oh and a belt drive. If, of course, I can afford it and don't change my mind 10 times over the next year. I'm probably going to keep the 250 for another year and bunch of thousands of miles before upgrading.

RhadamYgg