Ethics, Motorcycle Dealerships and Motorcyclists

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RhadamYgg
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Ethics, Motorcycle Dealerships and Motorcyclists

#1 Unread post by RhadamYgg »

Hey folks, its been a while. I'm still alive. :) 4000+ miles under my belt in my first season riding and I'm not sure when I'll pack it in for the year.

I hope all of you are well and have been riding as much as possible.

Rode in today, froze my "O Ring" off (it was probably mid-fifties, but I might need to put my liner in) - and I went for a quick search on a late lunch break on news.google.com

Firstime Rider Killed 30 seconds after Ride

Summary:
20 year old buys bike (called crotch rocket in this article)
He does not have license
He has a lifetime of experience on small bikes/off-road bikes
He gets on bike shows off to friends 30 seconds in to ride with friends, guns bike and dies in collision with large commercial truck.

The article is from his mother's point of view. It is not what I would call an incredibly well written article and it does have some incorrect data in it. It does pull at me since I have two sons and I wouldn't want this to happen to either of them.

For example the article talks about these high-powered bikes as not having speed governors. I know for a fact if it was a new bike that was a super sport - it certainly would have a speed limiter. It could however have been an older super sport bike without such a regulator in place.

The article does is highlight an issue that has come up here several times. The issue of legality of selling motorcycles in an unethical manner which results in the death of a new motorcycle owner.

When this comes up - I usually take a stance that it should be illegal for dealers to sell bikes (of any sort) to people without licenses and that training should be required. Others point out that it should be the person's responsibility to make sure they have all the things necessary to legally ride what they are purchasing.

A law would certainly do the trick, but getting sensible laws passed on this topic is difficult. Why, after all, are the legislatures going to spend time saving the lives of a small portion of the population when there are other issues that would gather votes if they pursue them.

It is a losing proposition.

Plus, of course, do we really want more laws to be out there? I mean really, this kind of limitation of freedom certainly has the potential for the legislature to go nuts and say 'these bikes are dangerous, let's just make them all illegal'.

And I don't think any of us want that.

I do think that there is a solution.

I also think that not everyone is ready to buy certain products without at first establishing a certain skill level.

First, I think this woman should sue the dealership for wrongful death. Quite clearly the folks at the dealership should know that they have products that are capable of being very dangerous. Clearly, they did not check if he had the appropriate license for the product that he was purchasing. {As a side note - I haven't purchased a car in twenty years without presenting my driver's license - I don't see how motorcycle dealers can get away without checking for license}

I think that motorcyclists can take responsibility in this matter.

We can:
1) Establish a very limited organization - for blacklisting dealerships. Members like people here at Total Motorcycle - probably a subset that is interested in making motorcycling as safe as possible.
2) When deaths happen that are clearly associated with the dealer selling a bike to a unlicensed rider, high-powered bike to a person with low skill level - it should be published on a website. AND WE SHOULD NEVER BUY FROM THAT DEALER.

Certainly the relatively small number of members on total motorcycle itself wouldn't be enough to dent the sales of any dealership (since we are geographically distributed). However, such a list would possibly be utilized by many other people - not necessarily just members of the organization.

What do any of you think?

RhadamYgg
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Re: Ethics, Motorcycle Dealerships and Motorcyclists

#2 Unread post by Skier »

RhadamYgg wrote: I also think that not everyone is ready to buy certain products without at first establishing a certain skill level.
This will be the hardest point of the entire exercise. Motorcyclists don't have a national, independent governing body and aren't interested in one.
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#3 Unread post by flynrider »

What do any of you think?
I think that we should all be responsible for our own decisions. There is no law (that I know of) that requires one to have an operators license to buy a car, motorcycle or even an airplane for that matter. Until there is, it would not be a dealer's responsibility to verify that someone has a motorcycle license before selling them a bike.

Unethical does not equate with illegal. If it did, then most car and motorcycle dealers would be out of business.

I agree that dealers should discourage the purchase of high powered bikes by unskilled buyers, but how much regulatory nannyism are you willing to put up with? Where does it end? Teenagers kill themselves in high powered automobiles at a much greater rate than motorcycles (pretty much a weekly event around here). Shouldn't we regulate that too? I've recently seen talk of a national push to have chips installed in all vehicles that would limit speeds to 70 mph. Why not?

I take a dim view of dealers that push high powered bikes on newbies, but I realize that in a free society, we are allowed to make decisions that might not be in our best interests. In the past, we were required to be responsible for those decisions, but I suppose that is becoming a thing of the past. You think the mother should sue the motorcycle dealership. Obviously a 20 yr. old adult cannot be responsible for their choices and their actions.
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#4 Unread post by poet »

flynrider wrote:Unethical does not equate with illegal. If it did, then most car and motorcycle dealers would be out of business.
More than dealers I think
flynrider wrote:Teenagers kill themselves in high powered automobiles at a much greater rate than motorcycles
True. Darwin?

There is talk in Nevada of raising the driving age to 20
flynrider wrote: ... in a free society, we are allowed to make decisions that might not be in our best interests.
That would explain that 20th shot of tequila :mrgreen:
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#5 Unread post by dm@ss »

What has happened to personal responsibility? Why is the first reaction to a bad decision to find who it can be blamed on?

Should dealers exercise a little more responsibility in fitting the bike to the buyer? Probably.

Should there be a law restricting the sales of "dangerous" motorcycles to "inexperienced" rider? Absolutely not. That is bad on so many levels.

Who's going to define "dangerous" and "inexperienced"? What happens when inexperienced is defined as 1 year today and then in 3 years the definition (and law) changes to 5 years?

I am tired of the government deciding they know what is best for me. I may agree with the general idea of the law but I resent the fact that I am forced into it. Case in point - seat belts and helmets. I'd wear them anyway but resent being told by my nanny government to do it or else.

As for bad decisions and personal responsibility, anyone want to buy a Wall Street bank?

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#6 Unread post by jstark47 »

20 year old goes to Sears, buys a table saw. Sears salesperson doesn't ask if he knows how to use it, just sells it to him. Goes home, uses it, has an accident, cuts off a hand, bleeds to death before he can control the bleeding.

Should we blacklist that Sears store? I don't think so. As a matter of fact, that sounds kinda dumb, doesn't it?

I agree with Flynrider.

I'm not going to boycott any dealer who, in their struggle to cover overhead and stay in business, may not have gotten the exact shades of gray correct and made the correct judgement call. It's not a black and white issue. How low a skill level in a rider? How powerful a motorcycle? You can kill yourself easily on a 150cc scooter for that matter....

I'm sorry this mother lost her son...... but it's too damned bad she wants everyone except him and herself to be responsible for his lack of judgement. As the article said, "he turned around to smile at his friends." The numbnut couldn't even look where he was going, and this is somehow the dealer's or the manufacturer's fault?
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#7 Unread post by RhadamYgg »

flynrider wrote:
What do any of you think?
I think that we should all be responsible for our own decisions. There is no law (that I know of) that requires one to have an operators license to buy a car, motorcycle or even an airplane for that matter. Until there is, it would not be a dealer's responsibility to verify that someone has a motorcycle license before selling them a bike.

Unethical does not equate with illegal. If it did, then most car and motorcycle dealers would be out of business.

I agree that dealers should discourage the purchase of high powered bikes by unskilled buyers, but how much regulatory nannyism are you willing to put up with? Where does it end? Teenagers kill themselves in high powered automobiles at a much greater rate than motorcycles (pretty much a weekly event around here). Shouldn't we regulate that too? I've recently seen talk of a national push to have chips installed in all vehicles that would limit speeds to 70 mph. Why not?

I take a dim view of dealers that push high powered bikes on newbies, but I realize that in a free society, we are allowed to make decisions that might not be in our best interests. In the past, we were required to be responsible for those decisions, but I suppose that is becoming a thing of the past. You think the mother should sue the motorcycle dealership. Obviously a 20 yr. old adult cannot be responsible for their choices and their actions.
I don't think the government should do anything. I think the government would screw it up. I strongly suspect that motorcyclists will have to take the responsibility themselves. The way to do this would to bring financial impact to dealers that allow this kind of behavior among their salespeople.

No license - no purchase. No/little experience - no race-level bike. Haven't ridden in 20 years - no super powered cruiser looking bike.

As far as the legal issue... In NY/NJ area - if you are a bar and you serve drinks to someone who gets in to a drunk driving accident, guess what you can be responsible. I'm not sure I see the difference between dangerously drunk and dangerously lacking skills and knowledge.

These sales people KNOW that without sufficient knowledge and skills these bikes are dangerous. To me, that knowledge gives them the responsibility to ensure that their customer knows what they are getting in to and that the customer has the appropriate licenses to use that bike.

Since the sales people have this knowledge - they also have culpability. Selling things like this to noobs is a form of civil negligence.

And there is that other thing.... The idea that if you know something is wrong - that you shouldn't do it. I mean this is hell and gone from buying all the salt in a hardware store just after it snows, doubling the price and selling it just outside of their parking lot (which I have seen happen in NJ).

We can simply blacklist dealers and specific sales people responsible for selling bikes to people who are not ready for them. Blacklisting can be done simply - by publishing it on a website and popularizing it.
RhadamYgg
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#8 Unread post by blues2cruise »

This kid had no respect for the laws to start with.....do you really think he would have repsected a law that would prevent him from buying that powerful bike?
Nope.
I don't know how it's done in the states.....but here in Canada....you cannot ride the bike off the lot without first having purchased insurance. And....you cannot purchase insurance without a valid license.

Did someone else purchase the bike for him?
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#9 Unread post by Talus »

dm@ss wrote:
As for bad decisions and personal responsibility, anyone want to buy a Wall Street bank?
I love this!

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#10 Unread post by ofblong »

blues2cruise wrote:This kid had no respect for the laws to start with.....do you really think he would have repsected a law that would prevent him from buying that powerful bike?
Nope.
I don't know how it's done in the states.....but here in Canada....you cannot ride the bike off the lot without first having purchased insurance. And....you cannot purchase insurance without a valid license.

Did someone else purchase the bike for him?
you dont need insurance here in the states to buy any vehicle nor get it registered in your name. You DO however need insurance to get tags on it. You DONT need a liscence to get insurance but you DO need a liscence to get tags on it.

with that said the kid did THE WRONG thing and laid the bike down. There is such a thing as going to fast but being able to control it. this kid couldnt control the speed and as thus incorrectly tried to correct it.
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