My Politically Correct Seasons Greetings

[Spiff]

I can tell you a "talking head" who works at the post office is pretty concerned about the new rule to say "seasons greetings" or "Happy Holidays"...anything BUT "merry Christmas." It's his job, and THIS IS WHAT HE WAS TOLD. No it's not the ACLU, but exactly where do you think this stuff is coming from?

I would think that it's coming from a supervisor who recognizes that not 100% of the public that the USPS comes in contact with is Christian and that therefore saying "Happy Holidays" is the best way to be inclusive and to promote tolerence. Period.

In your post, you mention "THIS IS WHAT HE WAS TOLD" as if this was some affront to your friend.

If that was the reason you used ALL CAPS, then Iyou don't seem to understand that employers tell their employees what to do or say all the time. Mine sure does, and I'm fine with that, but maybe it's just because I always obey authority figures.

Finally, you don't seem to like my U.S. courtroom example. But suppose you were arrested in Saudi Arabia. I dunno, maybe you got a sex change and decided to drive a car around Riyadh or something.

If your judge and jury were all wearing Muslim garb and the walls were full of Islamic scripture, and in fact the judge citied a law based on a Koran verse ... do you think you would get a fair trial in this situation if you showed up in court wearing a crucifix?

Honestly, what's your answer?

The ACLU wants to keep governement and religion from mixing precisely to avoid just this kind of scenario.

And I think that's a good thing.

[Loonette]

Yoga is a physical activity designed specifically to improve the overall healthy state of the body. The resulting state of euphoria, or any other name you give it can also be achived by hauling garbage. The body releases endorphins during both of these activities. I have injured myself many times over the past ten years while feeling just fine at work. After a couple of hours of rest, I've found myself unable to put weight on my sprained ankle, unable to lift a coffee cup with my sprained wrist, inable to even move my sprained finger...etc. The body can release powerful pain relief in response to targeted physical stimulation. This should not be confused with a spiritual state, as the chemicals can be found in the blood when sampled at the right time.

I don't know where exactly you received your information on Yoga, but you're 100% incorrect and mistaken about its origin and its intended results. The physical results of Yoga are a side effect, and a pretty good one. Modern Westerners think that yoga is primarily physical because they, like you, don't even bother for one minute to actually get educated regarding the spiritual path that Yoga offers - and that is the origin of Yoga - spiritual. By the way, I'm not "confused" by my spiritual experiences - are you?


oops - I see that SV made a similar response. I'll leave mine anyway, since I brought up Yoga in the first place.

Namaste

[Wizzard]

Loonette , I bow to you ................Shanti
Regards, Wizzard

[Kal]

Peace, Goodwill and Be Excellent to Eachother.

Can you agree to disagree on this one guys?

Whatever race, denomination or other beliefs you all have, may you're new year be a good one.

[oldnslo]

I prefer blueberry yoga, but strawberry-banana isn't bad......

[Loonette]

The comparison of homosexuality and child molestation is absurd.

So, once again we arrive at accountability, or lack thereof. The "born that way" argument is an attempt to remove accountability just as much as the removal of Christianity from our society is. Without an all-knowing, all-powerful God to hold you accountable for your actions, nothing in this world is absolute. What you consider over-the-line of decency or morality, someone else may not. And under whose authority are you going to enact laws to curb the behavior? Your own?

Here's what I wrote in that post as well...

I have empathy for the child molesters and the rapists and the murderers of the world. Not because I think they should be set free from their punishments on Earth (as a matter of fact I think the death penalty sucks because it releases the guilty from paying their debt to society) I have empathy for them because their soul is lost, and what a shame that is. To inflict yourself upon another without their consent is wrong, and for some reason these folks have come to a place in their life where this is what they do to have some control in their life. It's a sad thing, and I feel sorry for them. Do they need to pay for their Earthly crime? Of course. But I don't believe they will be "damned" by God. I believe that they were meant to be here, however despicable their actions, to learn and to teach. Maybe in their next life they will be the victim instead of the assailant? Maybe in the life after that they'll be a nun or a born-again TV evangelist? I don't know for sure - it's what I believe.

I already gave my thinking on accountability. The citizens of this country devise laws to punish and to remove from society those people whose behaviors are harmful to others (child molesters). Consenting adults having sex with each other does not harm anyone else. And since spirituality is personal, only an individual can decide if they are honoring their own value system.

[sv-wolf]

Hi Zoo

Thanks for responding on this.

So Jesus used metaphors and broad statements to get His point across, or so the King James translation would appear to show. The point is to take the underlying message literally, and not dismiss the whole thing entirely simply because He didn't come right out and say, "Pay taxes". Too many choose to dismiss the Bible entirely simply because the statements are not blunt enough.

You say that the point is to take the underlying message literally. But that is exactly the problem. Is there an "underlying message" and what is it? Any underlying message, (any point that you say Jesus is trying to get across) must be inferred from the text, and to do that, you must make an interpretation. An interpretation is anything that imports additional assumptions or material into an existing text and does not simply repeat the words of the text itself. In point of fact, your interpretation is likely to be as valid as any other, but there is no guarantee that it is 'right' or has a special status.

Your point that Caesar is now dead and there are none currently in power is an excellent example. The disciple was asking Jesus, "What about this tax Caesar has imposed on us?", and Jesus basically said, "Pay the tax. His face is on the money, so abide by the laws of the government as you abide by the laws of God". There is a literal message to be taken from that, despite the fact that it is arrived at through metaphor. And even though we have to get all three brain cells working together to make the leap from "Caesar" to "Government", I don't think it qualifies as a full-blown interpretation.

In point of fact, Zoo, the Bible does not make Christ unambiguously say "Pay the tax. His face is on the money, so abide by the laws of the government as you abide by the laws of God" . You have to make a whole series of assumption to make it say this. And no number of brain cells will guarantee that you are making the right assumptions.

For example, one common alternative interpretation of the 'render unto Caesar' remark is that Christ's questioners were trying to corner him into making a seditious statment and that his reply was a well-judged piece of evasion. As I pointed out he does not say what exactly is legitimately due to Caesar.

So in reading this text in the way you do you are making a whole series of interpretative assumptions:

That Caesar is being used here as the symbol for the Roman State
That the Roman State is further, an emblem for any state.
That the payment of taxes to Caesar is assumed to be legitimate
That, by extension, the payment of taxes is a symbol for obedience to all the laws of the state
That the questioner is a symbol for everyman
That the purpose of the statement is to lay down a code of behaviour
That this code of behaviour applies under all circumstances at all times.

That's a hell of a lot of assumptions. Now they may seem obvious ones to you, but what is obvious is usually the result of familiarity and has nothing to do with accuracy or validity.

The problem with treating it like a huge book of metaphors is that the people who do so then claim the Bible is open to interpretation, and that leads to using it as a means to an end. You'll find that a lot of wacko denominations, like the Catholics, like to take verses out of context and base their entire belief structure on them. Just look at how Spiff, I believe it was, threw those verses from Exodus and Leviticus at me regarding slavery. To the uneducated and uninformed, it would appear as though the Bible does support slavery. Thing is, those verses were from the Old Testament and were from a time when slavery was more prominent, and as Ron pointed out, it wasn't a four-letter-word at that time period. A master/slave relationship wasn't too far off from a modern day employer/employee, or home-owner/house-keeper relationship. Some slaves were sentenced into the slave trade to repay a defaulted debt, since bankruptcy was not an option in those times. In any case, the point I'm trying to make is that you have to read the whole Bible, have a good understanding of the time period, and be aware of the context in which every verse is being used before arriving at the literal meaning of it. Picking and choosing verses out of context and with no understanding of the laws of the time can lead to some pretty off-the-wall interpretations, especially if your whole purpose is to use the Bible as leverage for your own agenda.

As I said, anything other than repeating the words of the text itself requires an interpretation and the importation of assumptions, it has nothing to do with whether you regard the Bible as a huge book of metaphors or not. Language, by its nature is always metaphorical.

I agree that if you take sections of a text out of context then your interpretation will be open to question, but even if you take a whole text and carefully study it there remain literally an infinite number of interpretations that you can make of it.

I once asked a fundamentalist Chrtistian how she went about making her interpretations. She said, "Well I sit down and pray and have a think about it and eventually it all comes to me and it all fits together". You don't have to be a Christian to expect this to happen. As I said before, you can do this with any text. Human brains are designed to project patterns into things. We make assumptions all the time while we search for our patterns, they don't guarantee us anything.

When it comes down to it, most 'literalist' Christians I have spoken to will fall back on the claim of divine guidance and faith. Now this I understand, though it doesn't encourage me to accept their views.

[ronboskz650sr]

Spiff, once again, you miss my point. Here's the point, again...You can't honor Christianity and support things it professes to be wrong at the same time. That's the point, again. Why don't you count up the number of positions the ACLU takes in opposition to Christian beliefs? If it's even one, then they aren't defending our right to religious freedom. How do you not see this? Do you even see how removing prayer from schools removes religious freedom from everybody who prays? Do you see how taking out Under God from the pledge of allegiance waters it down for evryone with any concept of one God? Do you really think supporting simple free speech for an evangelist has anything to do with being in favor of religious freedom? They would have lost that one on the basis of free speech alone if they had tried to get him off the street, no matter what he was saying, barring outright treason.
The all caps were to show he was required to not say what he believes is the name of the holiday to avoid getting fired. How do you justify this, if you're such a liberty proponent. Yes, employers tell us what to do, but isn't religious descrimination of any kind illegal already? Whatever.

Yoga....Okay it's a side effect. Endorphins were the point, and the effect of them. They area chemical produced by the body, and chemical reactions aren't spiritual connection to God. Sorry for the confusion. I have alot to respond to. I realize I don't have to. Exercise in any aerobic form will produce these effects, and Yoga isn't necessary to those who have a belief system...exercise stands on its own, too. Yoga movements can be done without meditation, BTW. Watch a circus.

The money Changers in the temple were violating previous scriptures, which Christ qouted when overturning the tables. The example of the money stands on its own, think whatever you want to discredit Christ for answering "cleverly", or any other adjective you need to support your unbelief. You are answering cleverly to make your points, too. Christ had as much right to be clever as you do, didn't he? (was this cleverly worded enough to keep me out of trouble? I know we're still hitting on rights a little.)

Arguing about the fact that our nation has allowed the ACLU under the guise of ensuring liberty is pointless. It's here to stay. What I'm saying is...Believe or don't believe, but don't mix them up. Do you think Muslims in America adopt some of Christianity because both are here and seem to share some ideas? How about the reverse? Absolutely not, either way. That's taking a stand.

What about Homosexual pastors? What about Gay marriage? What scripture even remotely implies either one? What document of any kind that was the basis for this new country? How does the first one preserve a religious freedom, if they claim Chistianity is their religion, and the bible denounces the premise?

Wishy-washiness and hypocrisy in the name of "tolerance" are both pretty pathetic, and Christians are not the only ones doing it. It's the same thing as labeling all harley riders as posers because some seem to be, then duckwalking your vulcan around the walmart parking lot. It isn't true, it's narrow-minded and it can keep you from enjoying the company of some interesting, intelligent people. OOps, a motorcycle related comment...I hope that's okay.

I guess I just won't ever get the continued strong defense of unbelief? If you don't believe, who cares? Are you simply trying to spread unbelief to the ends of the earth? If so, just say so. The bible predicted that, but it's not something I enjoy when someone does it. Our belief system also puts you clearly on the other side if that's your goal. Taking a stand against the propogation of disbelief is enough for me to disconnect with someone. That's taking a stand too, like it or not...I don't like it, but I'll still do it. There is a line...not a grey area. Why remove hope from people?

We are trying to profess Christ as Lord and Savior to the world, so people will know and have hope of salvation from a fallen world. What are you doing? What do you have that's foundational to spreading your disbelief? Your personal disbelief? Just because lots of Christians differ on the bible, and even ignore it altogether isn't a valid argument for dicrediting all Christians for what we believe (you can write things to the contrary, but most of your other writings do exactly that). My "misunderstanding" of details of other religions as proof I believe incorrectly, also lacks validity. I don't have to understand every single minute nuance of any/every other religion to decide what I believe. You very clearly don't understand every nuance of the bible, either, and expect me to accept your disbelief, don't you? I have seen enough evidence of the teachings in the Bible to convince me it's true. If you haven't, Have you really even looked? Your knowledge of the bible is not teaching based. That is, you aren't looking at bible teaching. You are picking out things you find hard to believe, and things you think look supportive of your position. Then you use thes to discredit the whole thing because you don't know about the parts that connect it all together. We believe the whole bible and find it to support itself, only because we've studied all of it and see the connections between the testaments and with secular history.

If you don't believe, what are we discrediting by detaching from you? Disbelief? Believing in people is nice, but people aren't up to the task of living up to your faith in them. Unless, of course you have low expectations, or seek things like acceptance, financial reward, pleasure, etc. All these things, and more, can also result from a relationship with Christ. Christians even ride motorcycles.

As for your foriegn judicial system question, spiff, what does that have to do with it? Nothing. Completely unrelated, due to our system of checks and balances. The government is already set up to do what the ACLU claims it is doing, as long as we elect officials who do the original plan. I answered your question in public, and you refused to answer mine in private. What do you have to say about that? You refuse to take a stand. Have it your way...both ways.

Those of you who are accusing me of too broad a brush, and are "proving" my misplaced faith beacuse I'm ignorant are doing exactly the same thing, only disbelief is what's driving your "education." I came to my belief through my education. I may have some trouble getting all of it into terms you will accept as truth, but some of you will never accept it anyway. I am well aware of this.

The utter lack of real study of the bible here is apparent . It is only exceded here by the intentional study with intent to discredit it. Reading lots of bible is no different than reading the Lord of the rings over and over if you are just out to discredit it at every opportunity with your new "book smarts." Or watching a movie over and over to find the bloopers. The History channel does the same thing with selective omission, and out of context verse selection. The scriptures were't even written in verses..those were added to make it "easier to interpret." That's really the problem. I wish they never would have broken it down into verses. It is still possible to read it in context, though. There are still grammatical rules you can follow to determine what is really the beginning and end of a passage. Just don't imply I'm the one who hasn't read itl or that I am otherwise out in left field due to lack of life experience. This seems to be an underlying argument for many folks. If it's that way here, I invite you to continue via PM. I can assure you I am not afraid to do that, and I don't mind spending the time, if you are actually interested i knowing what I believe, not just to argue.

The apostle Paul, former persecutor of Christians (followers of "the way") teaches the first centruty church to be subject to authourity in the government, with no mention of Ceasar, BTW. We still have "government", don't we? This complements Jesus time specific example of the money with timeless wisdom/advice on how to live the Christian life. Richard, you are obviously well-read. Read the rest of the bible. Read it all, cover to cover. Read it without prejudice...you haven't done that, or you would have seen the Apostle paul connection to the "ceasar" example. Metaphor is accepted by other writers, why not the bible? There is nothing circul;ar about using a rule book in sports and then saying the sport in question requires you top follow the rule book. The bible as the founding scripture for Christianity is a perfectly acceptable reason for saying what's in it applies to the belief. Your lack of acceptance doesn't change that. Do you cheat at card games? Why not? (I'm sure you don't BTW) The rules.

Let me ask you people something. Who here has taken a music appreciation course? If you have, do you apply the critical listening you learned to every piece of modern music you hear on the radio? If so, do you have any songs you like, or do you pick them apart because of what you learned in music appreciation? If your answer is "I recognize the difference in modern music as it contrasts with classical music" or something like that, let me ask you another one. Wouldn't the music appreciation class have tought you that? Of course. What about music theory? If you took that, is it the same way? No, it's foundational. It could easliy be used to discredit music appreciation in the hands of an educated but narrow minded musician, even one who took music appreciation.

Are you really tolerant at all of Christians? Or, is your entire view of them based on what you "learned " from someone else, including Christians who discount the bible? Have you really studied the scripture we base our belief on with any interest in why we believe it, or just to make sure you can argue with us? The world is full of knowledge, but lacking in wisdom. Maybe if you read the bible seeking wisdon, instead of knowledge you will learn what it's about. God didn't intend for it to be a school of knowledge that would make time stand still and keep man exactly where he used to be. It's intended to be timeless wisdom applicable throughout the ages until the second coming of Christ. Many highly educated people can't function well in life regardless of all the knowledge they have. Conversely, most ancient wisdom writers, bible or otherwise, wouldn't pass a modern college entrance exam for lack of adequate knowledge. Yet we study their wisdom when we get to college. The bible is the same way. Read it for what it is, and not for what you think it isn't and you can actually see its applications for today.

I'll keep reading, but I don't see much point in responding to the thread anymore, unless I see some actual documentation to respond to, for example a bible verse used out of context or misquoted altogether (example "God helps those who help themselves"). I'm agreeing to disagree, in other words, and don't want to fuel a fire that isn't keeping anybody warm. I hope somebody will read the bible as a result of this thread, even though Wizz didn't start it that way. I thank him for being tolerant of the discussion. Hope is not wishful thinking, but the certainty of things to come.

[ronboskz650sr]

Loonette, I just re-read your post. Your tone is unmistakably nasty. I don't think I did that to you, and have fully explained the "need" to get fully educated on Yoga. Another example would be the "need" to get fully educated in rocket science to believe we went to the moon. Are you Fully educated in Christianity...enough to disprove it? I wasn't trying to disprove anything about yoga, and you made your point about its origins.

I made a statement about the effect of endorphins, not one about your spiritual state...Why attack me? That's a good reason to get out of this post. I'm not even being read for content anymore, only as a target, like Zoo. Time for you all to read or not read our bible. Make it yours, or don't. You decide. No more posts here from me for the crowd to dissect and get offended by. Any one can PM me if you want verses in response to legitimate questions...based on belief or disbelief.

[Loonette]

No, not nasty. Maybe defensive. You claim to know about Yoga, and you continue to route yourself back to the "physical" of Yoga. It's so much more than that. I know that going to the Chiropractor has physical benefits by opening up the neuron lines in the spine - that also can cause an endorphin rush, but I do not confuse that with a spiritual experience. In Yoga you release physical energy (the poses) as well as mental energy (meditation) so that you're more open to accept spiritual energy. But it is not an endorphin rush. The physical benefits are a reflection of the positive energy that is flowing through the body. Obviously the physical activity is good for the body. But most Yogis (well, except maybe for the ones making the big bucks with Western popularity) don't even view their bodies that way. They're into Yoga for the spiritual purpose - they don't even realize how most people would view their incredibly flexible, healthy, and strong bodies. And it's a practice - not a way of creating a super healthy body or fitting into that bathing suit by summer or I gotta do this thing before I have a heart attack - it's more of a way to continue learning about the intimacy of a relationship with pure spirit.

You don't have to learn anything about Yoga, or Paganism, or Wicca. I don't have any desire to learn any more than I already have about Christianity. I saw enough of the Christian world while growing up, and I see what the religious zealots are attempting to do to our government and the world (and this applies to Islamic fanatics as well. Please don't get me wrong - it's not just Christianity that bugs me). The religions that I'm more drawn to do not teach that it's practitioners are to go out and "spread the word".

Both you and Zoo maintain that you're not being judgmental, but I just don't see it. Even if you're just sitting back and silently praying for someone else to be "saved", you are doing that because you have judged them. And there seems to be so much fear in you. But more like a paranoia - that the gays are gonna get you or the folks who like to watch a good triple-X flick in the privacy of their home are gonna somehow taint this world of ours. Hey - at least their having a good time with each other in the privacy of their home where it doesn't affect you one bit. It's not your thing - cool. Teach that to your kids as well. That's what family values are. But your religion teaches you that all others are wrong in their path, and that it's your responsibility to convert the world. I get it. But don't expect folks to be to warm to the idea.

Ron - you have always had kind words for people on this board including me. I know that you would help me if I needed it - even if you just met me on the street. Zoo - I'm not so sure of. He's met me and knows me a bit more personally. If we were strangers though, I believe he would think that he could size me up in one glance based on my physical appearance (and without seeing me with my bike). Am I wrong, Zoo? I hope so, but again, I'm not sure. I like both of you guys for a lot of reasons, and I can't see that changing. But with the religion stuff it gets so tricky. And it affects me very deeply as I'm sure it does anyone involved. We are all passionate. We all think we know it. A Buddhist would be the only one standing clear on that one. I think.

Back tracking to the issue on the ACLU - I have had no personal experience with the group, other than just being familiar with their work. Wizzard pointed out some cases where the ACLU has worked for the protection of the rights of Christians. They are here for all of us. Their main work results in a more inclusive and equitable society. There is no interest in squashing down one group over another. What good could come of that? By the way, have you ever seen a Pagan pentagram on the lawn of any governmental agency? Oh, heck no. But, if I like, I can display one in my own front yard. There's no law against that. Just like nobody is telling Christians to take down their private yard decorations. But if my local government won't let me put out the pentagram on OUR governmental space, then why a Crucifix? I have been tolerant of the Christian culture all of my life, but I think it's safe to say that nobody has come knockin' on your door peddling Buddhism or the like.

In any case... I never would want to disrespect your beliefs, but I can see that at times it might have appeared that way by my written tone. I apologize for that. Again, probably more a feeling of defensiveness than anything else. To me, beliefs are just that - beliefs. None of us will surely know until we leave this good Earth. In the meantime, I'd rather spend that time keeping it positive, and I'm finding that this gets me somewhat riled up. I don't think I've ever held a conversation quite like this before. I don't want to fall into the trap of using the internet as a shield for using unkind words (although, I don't think I could have shared so much of my life if it were face to face - internet good or bad?).

Cheers,
Loonette