My Politically Correct Seasons Greetings

[Loonette]

I just read your PM, Ron. I'm typing a response that you'll receive shortly. Thanks...

Loonette

[ZooTech]

I'll add one more thing and then I, too, feel it's time to bow out of this discussion since it's going nowhere.

I have always found it fascinating how the people who discredit the Bible are always bonified experts on every other religion or "spiritual movement" on the planet, but know little more about the Bible than the atheist talking points and rhetoric. When I attended Christian school, we spent far more time studying evolution in science class than Creation. After all, how are we to stand strong in our beliefs if we don't have a complete understanding of the other side's point of view? Yet on every forum I have been on where Creation vs. Evolution was brought up, the first thing the non-believers did was accuse me of having no idea how the logistics of evolution worked.

Most Christians will tell you that you have to have faith to believe in God. Unfortunately, most Christians are dead wrong. There is an abundance of evidence for Creation all around us, if we are willing to consider it from a standpoint free from preconcieved notions or a desire to discredit the findings. As a matter of fact, I believe it takes an infinite amount of faith to believe in evolution. A fifth grade understanding of statistics is all you need to realize the improbability of all the things happening that would have needed to happen for us to be here right now. Mutations always result in a loss of information, yet evolutionists teach us that trillions of mutations over millions of years resulted in an amoeba becoming a man and a woman, complete with self-awareness and emotions. Frankly, with that kind of faith in dumb luck, believing in God almost feels like a cop out.

[ZooTech]

Ron - you have always had kind words for people on this board including me. I know that you would help me if I needed it - even if you just met me on the street. Zoo - I'm not so sure of. He's met me and knows me a bit more personally. If we were strangers though, I believe he would think that he could size me up in one glance based on my physical appearance (and without seeing me with my bike). Am I wrong, Zoo? I hope so, but again, I'm not sure.

Did you have me pegged for a religious zealot the first time we met for a ride? Do you think me naive enough to think I can size someone up and know all their inner workings and beliefs based on their clothes, piercings, or tattoos? Do you think because you had an abortion and practice yoga, or because you vote democrat and don't call yourself a Christian that I no longer want to ride with you and Scan this summer? If so, who's being judgemental here? For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Looney, including me. As a Christian I take a stand against a lot of the things you believe in, but as a friend I accept you as you are and hope to put on some more miles together in the future. If you choose not to associate with me any longer that's your choice, but it's only because knowing what you now know about me you're afraid I'll be sitting in constant judgement of you. And if you can't see the irony in that, then you've missed the whole point Ron and I have been trying to make for twenty pages now.

[cb360]

I am sooooooo glad I skipped this one.

[sv-wolf]

Zoo, it's a shame you always spoil your posts with sneers and evasions. Of course we are coming at this from very different perspectives and very different agendas and are unlikely to agree. But it has been interesting to meet. I've enjoyed the content of a number of your posts and have gained maybe a small insight into how you think on this issue. Maybe we can meet as people occasionally if not as co-religionists.

The name calling however, justs blasts off into your own stuff and gets us nowhere.

Yep, time for me to call a halt too. It's been interesting though. I always feel that I have increased my own understanding through debates like this. And more than that. People also open up in a different way on the web. Nice to meet you guys.

[Loonette]

A woman's "right to choose" begins and ends in the bedroom. To argue otherwise is to reinforce what I said earlier - that abortion is nothing more than a way to make sex as consequence-free as possible. Instead of granting abortions, why not just tie the tubes of the promiscuous woman in question and let her have at it?

It's statements like this one that lead me to think you are judgmental. The word promiscuous in no way describes any sex life I've ever had. Scan has been it in that department (well, except for the guy that I "lost" it to, but that was only twice and well protected). You really don't see any gray. So you have decided that these women, which includes me, are merely promiscuous and should have their tubes tied. This wouldn't make me very comfortable in your presence.

As far as judging people by appearances alone, I did say that I hoped I was wrong. And you say that you don't do that, so okay.

When we go for rides, we don't just ride. We stop and talk. And we've already talked about a lot of stuff far beyond the weather. I suppose I'm concerned that we'll venture into a topic where I'll express an opinion so offensive to you (or visa-versa) that our whole relationship will become either guarded for not wanting to offend the other, or that we'll be so divided it will end anyhow.

This has been a drain on me, as it has been for a few others. I have more thoughts on this, but I think I'll PM you later tonight.

Cheers,
Loonette

[scan]

All other things out of consideration, Wizard really put a damper on the anti-Christian label stuck on the ACLU. I knew there were a lot of pro-Christian cases, but I didn't have time to research them. Thanks to Wizard for showing the light. This shuts down any ACLU arguement, other than someone who just refuses to see proof, and want to blindly hate them cases not in the complainers favor. I don't hate or love the ACLU, but I know any of us could need their services in the future - Christian, Republican, or Buddhist - and they would support us on constitutional grounds.

[Wizzard]

Quite the contrary to this not going anywhere , it seems to have gone to a whole many places .
For example the repetition in several comments about endorphins . My only cognitive experiences of endorphins (or so I thought ) were related to getting ink . When one reaches that point between pain and no-pain because the endorphins start kicking in . Which in turn caused me to look up endorphins . I learned a great deal a short while ago .
Prior to this new knowledge I would not have connected endorphins to bliss .
Thanx for taking me there . I love new knowledge and learning .
Belief systems are a very personal thing .
Peace , Love , & Respect , Wizzard

[ZooTech]

Zoo, it's a shame you always spoil your posts with sneers and evasions.

The name calling however, justs blasts off into your own stuff and gets us nowhere.

SV, I've enjoyed the discussion thus far and appreciate you hanging in there and at least giving it an honest listen. As for sneers, evasions, or name calling, I have to say I have no idea what you're talking about. Perhaps you, too, are confusing my brand of blunt honesty with judgement and intolerance. Gummi is the only one who went out of his way to dodge my questions, and I was labeled "wild" by at least a couple participants. Granted I may have lost my cool or even confused one person for another (easy to do in a constant barrage of hostile responses), but I never belittled anyone or evaded a line of questioning.

If anyone here is left thinking of me as an intolerant, judgemental bigot simply because you participate in (or have participated in) some activity the Bible would frown upon, all I can say is that I refuse to apologize for believing the way I do. I will not compromise on my morals simply to avoid being the buzz kill that ruins your good time. From what I've gathered, the vast majority of you believe that as long as an activity doesn't hurt anyone else, then it's okay by you. That pretty much sums up your definition of an "open-minded" individual. And you know what? In the absense of a Creator (i.e. that whole "Big Bang" thing wasn't a huge crock), I would have to agree with you. If this life was all we had, with nothing to look forward to after death, I would say enjoy yourself any way you choose so long as you don't harm anyone else. Thing is, God does exist, whether you believe in Him or not. And He can give you purpose in this life, and a higher purpose after this life. All He asks is that you admit you are a sinner, ask Him to forgive you, and ask Him to come into your heart and change your life. From there, simply do your best to avoid sin and temptation, and witness to those seeking answers. Nowhere does it say we [Christians] are to walk around in judgement of others, looking down upon anyone, or thinking less of anyone. After all, we have done nothing (zip, zilch, nada) to earn our salvation (contrary to what the Catholics believe), so what would give us the right or ability to think more highly of ourselves? The burden of every born-again Christian is knowing that Heaven and Hell exist, knowing the path to righteousness, and trying to spread the word to a world that doesn't want to hear it! It's as if we're working in the World Trade Center at 7:00am on 9/11/01 and we know the planes are coming, and we're trying to get as many people out of the buildings as we can but nobody will listen. Convincing people that the way they view the world is completely wrong is one helluva plight. And sadly enough, by the time some of you realize that Ron and I are right, it'll be too late for you. Call that conversion by fear, as some of you will, but only if you choose to ignore the reward for accepting Christ as your Savior. Knowing without a doubt where you'll be after you die is the easiest way to sleep well at night. It's the fear of uncertainty that drive so many to substance abuse and earthly indulgences, trying desperately to avoid the reality staring them in the face every waking moment. Born-again believers are set free - a huge weight lifted off their shoulders. And Ron and I only came here to this thread to share that with you, and were met with labels and hostility. All He asks is that we try...and we did.

[Spiff]

I, too have learned many things in this thread.

And I would like to thank the bikers who had the courage (finally!) to jump in and defend the ACLU. (Hey, where were all you guys on page 2 when I was all alone? )

I will bow out, too, for the simple reason that I cannot spend any more time digesting the thousands of words in the new posts that appear each time I come back and check on this thread.

I'm biting my tongue (figuratively), to keep myself from delivering any departing thoughts in response to some of the thoughts in recent posts.

For I know if I do, I will always be tempted to come back and see how others may have responded to them.

And I'm determined to break that vicious cycle!